I've got a question for all you concealed carry guys. My neighbor was riding his bike in town when two guys jumped out of a car and demanded his bike. He resisted so they started pounding on him. In this case would he be justified in drawing if he was carrying or would it have just been better to have a can of OC spray for situations like this? Thanks
Recent Situation
- Thread starter lcgriff
- Start date
I would say if a gun was all he had then yes he would be justified in drawing and even shooting. These men were physically attacking him brutally determined to rob him. His life was in danger. He is outnumbered. This is a gang assult.
It would be preferable to have a can of Pepper Spray or something I would think for hte reason that a gun can only drop one person at a time and can be taken away by one while shooting the other, and at close range hand to hand pepper spray would easier spray into both attacker's eyes and burn to some degree or another.
It would be preferable to have a can of Pepper Spray or something I would think for hte reason that a gun can only drop one person at a time and can be taken away by one while shooting the other, and at close range hand to hand pepper spray would easier spray into both attacker's eyes and burn to some degree or another.
I think that the license also specifies that you are entitled to use deadly physical force (DPF) to defend against "forcible robbery."
I know I've read that, anyway.
I think that guys jumping a bicyclist from a car would count as forcible robbery, from the description.
-blackmind
I know I've read that, anyway.
I think that guys jumping a bicyclist from a car would count as forcible robbery, from the description.
-blackmind
This is my own thinking on the matter:
I would never say that pepper spray would be "preferable" in this case, because I think of pepper spray as something to use when force is threatened but has not actually been put into use by a criminal aggressor. I would favor the gun, if violence were already being used against me.
If the second attacker could get the gun from you, he could also get the pepper spray from you. I've heard so many accounts about disparate reactions to pepper spray (the famous, "It'll just make him madder") that I would not count on it when violence was already in play.
Not only that, but pepper spray can EASILY get on YOU as you use it against another person or persons.
Not one, but TWO guys get out of a car to rob me (how do I know they don't have two more in the car?), I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt, or some bleeding heart, "I just don't want to shoot someone over a bicycle" reaction. It's not "over a bicycle" -- it's over robbing me!
-blackmind
MostToysWins
New member
As far as I'm concerned, drawing my weapon is the last thing I want to do.
The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever.
If you pull your gun and shoot someone you WILL go to court, and someone WILL sue you. Is the bike worth the time and money it costs to deal with all that? No.
I carry regularly. If someone were to put a gun in my face and say give me your car, I would say "here you go!"
There are situations where your life may be in real danger when pulling your gun is the only option, but it should be just that, your ONLY option.
The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever.
If you pull your gun and shoot someone you WILL go to court, and someone WILL sue you. Is the bike worth the time and money it costs to deal with all that? No.
I carry regularly. If someone were to put a gun in my face and say give me your car, I would say "here you go!"
There are situations where your life may be in real danger when pulling your gun is the only option, but it should be just that, your ONLY option.
I don't want to draw either, but....
....we just had a shop owner here in the Houston area murdered last night in front of his wife when he had done what you just suggested (give them what they want). The BGs were waiting as they closed up their convenience store and got in their car and told them to get out of the car. Demanded their money (receipts of the day) and the man did what they said. So they shot him, point blank, pulled his wife out of the car and dropped her on the pavement, took off with the car and left him to die in the parking lot.
The wife is suicidal in her grief.
If you are being robbed, in this day and age, YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER. Shoot. It was not about the bicycle; if it was, they'd have just gone and stolen a bicycle somewhere. That's easy enough to do.
As somebody's sig line said; I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Springmom, who sounds bloodthirsty and isn't but wants to live to see her grandchildren
....we just had a shop owner here in the Houston area murdered last night in front of his wife when he had done what you just suggested (give them what they want). The BGs were waiting as they closed up their convenience store and got in their car and told them to get out of the car. Demanded their money (receipts of the day) and the man did what they said. So they shot him, point blank, pulled his wife out of the car and dropped her on the pavement, took off with the car and left him to die in the parking lot.
The wife is suicidal in her grief.
If you are being robbed, in this day and age, YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER. Shoot. It was not about the bicycle; if it was, they'd have just gone and stolen a bicycle somewhere. That's easy enough to do.
As somebody's sig line said; I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Springmom, who sounds bloodthirsty and isn't but wants to live to see her grandchildren
This is the permissive-toward-criminality response that I deplore. I feel that it is a victim mentality that says "capitulate capitulate capitulate" instead of STAND UP for what is right against what is wrong. It may be what you feel like doing, but personally, I find it sickening.
I think the better question is, "Can you live with the idea that you will be letting someone who has proved himself a violent criminal go so that he can victimize more people, just because you didn't want the expense of going to court?" Because that's exactly what you'd be doing.
People have a responsibility -- to a certain extent -- to think of more than just themselves. I believe that every permissive, capitulating crime victim is allowing society to fall further and further into the clutches of the criminals -- and every person who offs a criminal crapbag is a hero. The more so if he has to go through court to defend his actions and comes out vindicated.
If your PLAN is to give up your stuff, why bother carrying at all? It seems like you already have your reaction pre-set, and it obviously doesn't involve use of a gun.
Some of us don't consider giving in to criminals an "option."
How long do you lie down, spread your cheeks and take it from criminals, anyway? What if they do this to you repeatedly, and the cops can't or won't find them? (And if they do, they're out again in no time.) It is JUST like dealing with the schoolyard bully. If you stand up to the bully the first time, even if you simply put up a good bluff, he will pass you over to pick on wimpier kids. But give in, and he's got you forever.
-blackmind
I see your point. The psychological presence of a gun (if not that one shot fired) would be enough to drive them away I suppose (more so than a can of spray) My way of thinking was that while a bullet goes only one direction and hits only one person (if even that), pepper spray sprays all over the place (even if it blows back on you) and the pain is so paralyzing that nobody is going to be getting madder, just be in so much pain that they will want to get away from the mace or even unconcious or trying to catch their breath on the ground. That's what I understood the effect of pepper spray to be (but then that could be just commercial hype like the people that say "A .45 caliber bullet will send you flying back through the door.")
I also see your point that there maybe more in the car. I had my gun and saw these guys were a serious threat, I wouldn't think I'd let them get close enough to jump me.
Thats a handicapping attitude MostToysWins
You seem to forget that drawing a gun does not necessarily mean you have to shoot. If at the point you draw they leave or backdown, then a gun just saved your life. If they continued there assault then you would be fully justified in shooting them.
Maybe if you had said "shooting my weapon" instead of "drawing my weapon" it would have made more sense to me.
Stay safe
You seem to forget that drawing a gun does not necessarily mean you have to shoot. If at the point you draw they leave or backdown, then a gun just saved your life. If they continued there assault then you would be fully justified in shooting them.
Maybe if you had said "shooting my weapon" instead of "drawing my weapon" it would have made more sense to me.
Stay safe
Wow...just... wow. That defies logic to me. I wonder how many people have thought just the same thing only to never have been given the chance to think anything else again? You'll give up your car, your bike, your wallet.... how bout your wife/girlfriend? Your child? Your life? Might as well give those up as well if someone threatened the use of violence to get them....
Just doesn't make sense to me... :barf:
Scares me that it "makes sense" to anybody, that we should "just give them what they want."
For one thing, you don't know that your "stuff" is ALL they want.
For another thing, it's an attitude of defeated, head-hanging cowardice to just give someone something that is yours, that they have no right to, just because they menace you.
God, I hate to think what life we'd be living if our forebears had just knuckled under that way.
-blackmind
For one thing, you don't know that your "stuff" is ALL they want.
For another thing, it's an attitude of defeated, head-hanging cowardice to just give someone something that is yours, that they have no right to, just because they menace you.
God, I hate to think what life we'd be living if our forebears had just knuckled under that way.
-blackmind
XavierBreath
New member
Here's my personal take on this one...............
A can of OC works if you have one attacker. If you have more than one, it will probably be turned against you by the one you are not spraying.
Multiple attackers meet the disparity of force criteria for a lethal response.
However...........your friend is on a bike. A BIKE. I do not know how many times as a kid I outran cops in patrol cars and on foot on my bicycle. A bike can go places cars cannot. It can out distance people who give chase on foot. There is a reason police now have bike patrols, and it isn't to save on gas. In this instance, I believe the best thing to do would have been to haul ass on the bike where the car could not go, and where you could get enough distance if they gave chase on foot. The object is to survive, not win a fight.
If you are near a park, ride across it. If you are near a store, ride through it. If you are on a road, get off of it. Use the bike to your advantage. There's no need to even draw a gun.
A can of OC works if you have one attacker. If you have more than one, it will probably be turned against you by the one you are not spraying.
Multiple attackers meet the disparity of force criteria for a lethal response.
However...........your friend is on a bike. A BIKE. I do not know how many times as a kid I outran cops in patrol cars and on foot on my bicycle. A bike can go places cars cannot. It can out distance people who give chase on foot. There is a reason police now have bike patrols, and it isn't to save on gas. In this instance, I believe the best thing to do would have been to haul ass on the bike where the car could not go, and where you could get enough distance if they gave chase on foot. The object is to survive, not win a fight.
If you are near a park, ride across it. If you are near a store, ride through it. If you are on a road, get off of it. Use the bike to your advantage. There's no need to even draw a gun.
He never should have stopped.
Blackwater OPS
New member
I agree with Xavier.
1st avoid giving BGs an opportunity to make you a victim.
2nd, if its too late for #1, try to get the hell out of there unhurt.
3rd, if one and two are out, Fight with everything you've got, and worry about court later.
Just giving up puts your life in the BG's hands, why would you give your live to the BG? Why carry if thats your mindset?
1st avoid giving BGs an opportunity to make you a victim.
2nd, if its too late for #1, try to get the hell out of there unhurt.
3rd, if one and two are out, Fight with everything you've got, and worry about court later.
Just giving up puts your life in the BG's hands, why would you give your live to the BG? Why carry if thats your mindset?
Doug ~
I took an OC class this summer. Almost everyone in the class volunteered to get sprayed. One woman did not react to the stuff. I mean she literally just shook her head a couple times, sneezed, and said, "That's it??" She got a pretty good faceful of the stuff too, because the instructor sprayed her a couple more times (with her permission) to be sure she'd been dosed.
pax
Give in?
On September 10, 2001, the prevailing attitude for airline "hijacking" was "do as they say and everything will be alright". The next day that changed! It has been a long time since the book, "The Onion Field" came out - I doubt that many of the forum members have read it. Might make good reading for some who says, "just give them what they want and everything will be alright".
If you try to steal my garbage and threaten me with force so you can take it, will I let you? You will find the answer in "Dane Geld".
Good luck.
On September 10, 2001, the prevailing attitude for airline "hijacking" was "do as they say and everything will be alright". The next day that changed! It has been a long time since the book, "The Onion Field" came out - I doubt that many of the forum members have read it. Might make good reading for some who says, "just give them what they want and everything will be alright".
If you try to steal my garbage and threaten me with force so you can take it, will I let you? You will find the answer in "Dane Geld".
Good luck.
MostToysWins
New member
Everoone on this board has their views - please respect them
WOW!
I didn't know my response would ilicit such a strong response of opposition towards my views.
I just choose to use my HEAD before my GUN, and realize there are serious ramifications of being involved in a shooting when there may be other options available.
I guess you guys I pissed off have killed someone before and have no problem with it.
My father is a retired police officer who was almost killed in a shooting, and had to shoot and kill the perp to save his own life, so please don't judge me without knowing me.
My father even though he was more than justified in killing the bad guy was racked with severe guilt and depression for many years. He retired from the force because of the shooting and this is not an isolated case. It happens to LEO's all the time. My father encourages me to this day to carry but makes sure I know I will have to take serious responsibility for my actions and that shooting someone should be the last option you use.
So unless you have pulled you weapon and killed someone, don't think that it is the easiest thing in the world to do and deal with, even if you are justified in doing so.
But lets get one thing straight...in response to some of the above posts...
I am in NO WAY saying "give in" to criminals.
I am in NO WAY "effeminant or emasculated", a defeatest OR a coward. How can you attack personally without knowing me at all.
My PLAN is not to "give up my stuff" but to use my head to get out of the situation in a safe as manner as possible. If I have to pull my gun and drop someone I will, if giving them my car diffuses the situation than so be it.
I think responding with GUNS BLAZING in every situation as blackmind appears to think, is very irresponsible unless you are trained to do so (LEO), and if you are blackmind I apologize.
Protecting you bike or car with deadly force is COMPLETELY different than protecting your wife and child.
In every gun class I have attended, EVERY instructor and LEO has told me if you pull your weapon, you use it. You DO NOT flash it or draw it to use as a simply a deterrent, that is a good way to get killed. You NEVER BLUFF with your gun.
I would have NO problem shooting anyone who was threatening me or my family's life, that is why I carry. I just don't think material possessions are worth possibly losing your life over. I would not want to widow my wife over my bike or car.
If I thought I was going to lose my life even after I gave the bad guy what he wanted I would draw and start shooting.
Everything is situational and I think someone resisting a group of bad guys over a bike is a stupid thing to do even though it is noble to stand up to criminals. 2 guys come to get your bike...what if you shoot the first one, the other has a gun and blows you away? Does that make you a hero...no it makes you dead over a stupid bike.
I live in Texas but I am intelligent enough to know this is not the wild wild west.
I really enjoy posting on this board and reading everyones views on things.
I have never judged or name called when I see a view I disagree with.
Please try to respect my views and understand I am a card carrying NRA member and CHL holder you believes in the right to bear arms and protect my possessions and family with deadly force if need be. But even though my views are different than some of yours, it makes them no more right or wrong than yours.
WOW!
I didn't know my response would ilicit such a strong response of opposition towards my views.
I just choose to use my HEAD before my GUN, and realize there are serious ramifications of being involved in a shooting when there may be other options available.
I guess you guys I pissed off have killed someone before and have no problem with it.
My father is a retired police officer who was almost killed in a shooting, and had to shoot and kill the perp to save his own life, so please don't judge me without knowing me.
My father even though he was more than justified in killing the bad guy was racked with severe guilt and depression for many years. He retired from the force because of the shooting and this is not an isolated case. It happens to LEO's all the time. My father encourages me to this day to carry but makes sure I know I will have to take serious responsibility for my actions and that shooting someone should be the last option you use.
So unless you have pulled you weapon and killed someone, don't think that it is the easiest thing in the world to do and deal with, even if you are justified in doing so.
But lets get one thing straight...in response to some of the above posts...
I am in NO WAY saying "give in" to criminals.
I am in NO WAY "effeminant or emasculated", a defeatest OR a coward. How can you attack personally without knowing me at all.
My PLAN is not to "give up my stuff" but to use my head to get out of the situation in a safe as manner as possible. If I have to pull my gun and drop someone I will, if giving them my car diffuses the situation than so be it.
I think responding with GUNS BLAZING in every situation as blackmind appears to think, is very irresponsible unless you are trained to do so (LEO), and if you are blackmind I apologize.
Protecting you bike or car with deadly force is COMPLETELY different than protecting your wife and child.
In every gun class I have attended, EVERY instructor and LEO has told me if you pull your weapon, you use it. You DO NOT flash it or draw it to use as a simply a deterrent, that is a good way to get killed. You NEVER BLUFF with your gun.
I would have NO problem shooting anyone who was threatening me or my family's life, that is why I carry. I just don't think material possessions are worth possibly losing your life over. I would not want to widow my wife over my bike or car.
If I thought I was going to lose my life even after I gave the bad guy what he wanted I would draw and start shooting.
Everything is situational and I think someone resisting a group of bad guys over a bike is a stupid thing to do even though it is noble to stand up to criminals. 2 guys come to get your bike...what if you shoot the first one, the other has a gun and blows you away? Does that make you a hero...no it makes you dead over a stupid bike.
I live in Texas but I am intelligent enough to know this is not the wild wild west.
I really enjoy posting on this board and reading everyones views on things.
I have never judged or name called when I see a view I disagree with.
Please try to respect my views and understand I am a card carrying NRA member and CHL holder you believes in the right to bear arms and protect my possessions and family with deadly force if need be. But even though my views are different than some of yours, it makes them no more right or wrong than yours.