Rebuild New Orleans - Yes or No?
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Rich - when someone doesn't agree with you - it doesn't necessarily mean they don't get it.
Listen - My having reservations about rebuilding a city where it can be destroyed - yet again - does not mean I have no compassion. I hope you all can see that, just maybe, concern about rebuilding in the same location is for the good of the people that might live there, and has nothing to do with my own well-being. The tax dollars are going to be spent either way, I'd just rather have them spent in a way that would allow them to live a little safer if possible. I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling this way. And if you accuse me of having zero compassion it's because you just don't get me.
Listen - My having reservations about rebuilding a city where it can be destroyed - yet again - does not mean I have no compassion. I hope you all can see that, just maybe, concern about rebuilding in the same location is for the good of the people that might live there, and has nothing to do with my own well-being. The tax dollars are going to be spent either way, I'd just rather have them spent in a way that would allow them to live a little safer if possible. I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling this way. And if you accuse me of having zero compassion it's because you just don't get me.
I'm gonna post this and leave because I think Rich is correct
Which was the point of my comment.
Just because a city does not share all the same geographical variables does not make them immune to the devastation of the super storms that they too have been warned are coming for years
Actually the ports that I compared to N.O. in my post share one very distinct similarity. They are all one Cat5, or less, away from being destroyed
Which was the point of my comment.
Just because a city does not share all the same geographical variables does not make them immune to the devastation of the super storms that they too have been warned are coming for years
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I didn't accuse YOU of having no compassion, Trip. I didn't say this is not a discussion worth having. I'm simply pointing out that it's not a discussion worth having NOW.
It's insensitive and, quite honestly, a bit cruel to sit around debating the future of a city, while it's residents are still reeling from a disaster the likes of which few of us will ever see.
YMMV....Carry On.
Rich
It's insensitive and, quite honestly, a bit cruel to sit around debating the future of a city, while it's residents are still reeling from a disaster the likes of which few of us will ever see.
YMMV....Carry On.
Rich
It sounds like you think New Orleans has a right to exist, and the entire country should pitch in as much as necessary to rebuild it.
It's not up to us whether to rebuild New Orleans. If enough people want to live there, it'll be rebuilt. Contributing government funds to rebuild the city is a recipe for disaster, though, because it removes much of the incentive for residents (those who don't need to live in a port city, at least) to move somewhere else. If the residents want to live there so badly, they should take the initiative by better protecting themselves against hurricanes. And if another bad hurricane heads toward them, they should leave, just as you left this time.
I wouldn't wish this kind of disaster on anyone (except maybe certain people who work in D.C.). Unfortunately, I don't control the weather.
Rich, now is exactly the right time to be debating this, so that some people who don't need to live in such a dangerous area (but did anyway because of nostalgia or some other emotional reason) will realize that and move elsewhere.
Baba Louie
New member
tyme,
If you were born and raised in New Orleans, have lived there your entire life, your mama and you daddy too, maybe their parents before them... you're gonna help rebuild your home. Period.
This may be emotion talking (I feel your pain) but it's also what's gonna be in 99% of the local's hearts and minds.
Should certain infrastructure be better designed for the 21st Century N.O.?
Should they seriously develop some form of bug-out plan with immediate response for those who cannot or choose not to leave next time it happens?
Should we all celebrate when N.O. has it's next Mardi Gras/Fat Tuesday parties or the next Super Bowl is held there?
Should we all help in some manner or fashion?
Are we Americans?
Or What?
(All of the above questions are rhetorical in nature... we know the correct answers)
If you were born and raised in New Orleans, have lived there your entire life, your mama and you daddy too, maybe their parents before them... you're gonna help rebuild your home. Period.
This may be emotion talking (I feel your pain) but it's also what's gonna be in 99% of the local's hearts and minds.
Should certain infrastructure be better designed for the 21st Century N.O.?
Should they seriously develop some form of bug-out plan with immediate response for those who cannot or choose not to leave next time it happens?
Should we all celebrate when N.O. has it's next Mardi Gras/Fat Tuesday parties or the next Super Bowl is held there?
Should we all help in some manner or fashion?
Are we Americans?
Or What?
(All of the above questions are rhetorical in nature... we know the correct answers)
Nobody said anything about 50 to 100 miles. I said 5 just enough to get out of the bowl. Even if the city is moved the water ways would be increased to allow for shoreline access, and ship traffic. I understand your plight as I lived in Bay St. Louis MS, and went through the hurricanes. However given your current situation is calling people names is going to get you what you need?
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Wasn't there a fire that destroyed almost an entire city on the west coast back in 1906? Didn't we rebuild it? I bet we made some adjustments to the architecture when it was rebuilt. Doesn't So-Cal rebuild after every quake? Don't they examine what went wrong and try to figure out how to fix it?
Fact is, we need that port. You can't just relocate a port because it'd be safer, ports usually have to be near water. Given that the port must exist, people have to work there. Just like every other city and town in the country there will be people who do not wish to live 20 miles from their place of work. People working at the port and refineries will want to eat lunch, so restauraunts will have to be nearby. These also require people to operate, people who also probably do not wish to drive 20 miles to work. By the time you go layer by layer through all the businesses that will need to be there to support the port and the other businesses, you have a city. It's unavoidable.
To those who say it's silly to rebuild because it will just be destroyed, what a bunch of ninnies. Do you really think we can't design buildings to withstand a little wind? I hate to think what will happen when a big storm hits Miami then. And flooding is no concern either. At the very least we can make the dikes strong enough to hold against such a storm. We could also follow the example of Tokyo (IIRC), they needed space to build a new airport, so they just built an island. I gaurantee we can find enough dirt to raise NO above sea level if we wanted. Some creative architecture could solve the problem as well. Many places in the path of tsunamis use the ground floor for parking and other nonessential things, leaving the vital parts above the flood plane.
New Orleans was over 100 years old. Many of the buildings have been around since the beginning. This isn't the first time a storm has hit it. This may be the biggest and most expensive storm, but so what? We put a man on the moon, weave cloth that stops bullets, and use light to cut steel. Do you really think we can't handle this little technical challenge? We're Americans. Americans don't turn tail and run when Mother Nature smacks us around a bit. Americans stand up and tell Mother Nature to go edit herself.
Fact is, we need that port. You can't just relocate a port because it'd be safer, ports usually have to be near water. Given that the port must exist, people have to work there. Just like every other city and town in the country there will be people who do not wish to live 20 miles from their place of work. People working at the port and refineries will want to eat lunch, so restauraunts will have to be nearby. These also require people to operate, people who also probably do not wish to drive 20 miles to work. By the time you go layer by layer through all the businesses that will need to be there to support the port and the other businesses, you have a city. It's unavoidable.
To those who say it's silly to rebuild because it will just be destroyed, what a bunch of ninnies. Do you really think we can't design buildings to withstand a little wind? I hate to think what will happen when a big storm hits Miami then. And flooding is no concern either. At the very least we can make the dikes strong enough to hold against such a storm. We could also follow the example of Tokyo (IIRC), they needed space to build a new airport, so they just built an island. I gaurantee we can find enough dirt to raise NO above sea level if we wanted. Some creative architecture could solve the problem as well. Many places in the path of tsunamis use the ground floor for parking and other nonessential things, leaving the vital parts above the flood plane.
New Orleans was over 100 years old. Many of the buildings have been around since the beginning. This isn't the first time a storm has hit it. This may be the biggest and most expensive storm, but so what? We put a man on the moon, weave cloth that stops bullets, and use light to cut steel. Do you really think we can't handle this little technical challenge? We're Americans. Americans don't turn tail and run when Mother Nature smacks us around a bit. Americans stand up and tell Mother Nature to go edit herself.
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Rich Lucibella
Staff
I've said my piece on this debate. Now I'm going to say something about the language in it....
I don't like it.
If it continues, it will do so with a few less participants.
I hope that's clear. In fact, I'm gonna suggest that a couple here edit their posts, like, right now.
If You Missed The Announcement
Rich
I don't like it.
If it continues, it will do so with a few less participants.
I hope that's clear. In fact, I'm gonna suggest that a couple here edit their posts, like, right now.
If You Missed The Announcement
Rich
Rich, your feelings and compassion for the victims of Katrina are evident. However, compassion does not come in only one form.
Maybe today is not the proper time, but questions about rebuilding New Orleans must be asked and answered - soon.
The tens, and possibly hundreds, of thousands of people left homeless by Katrina deserve to know, as quickly as possible, the future they face. It is no kindness to leave them in limbo wondering what their fate will be. But it is also no kindness to make comforting promises, without serious thought, if those promises might not be fulfilled.
The only way NO should be rebuilt is if they raised it to 50' ABOVE Sea Level. Would make a good place to put all the dredging spoils from the river. To rebuild a city that is below sea level makes no sense at all. Relocate the industry as well to higher ground. Best time is when the destruction is almost total. Why wait until it is rebuilt to face the inevitable?
rebuild
Sure rebuild it if they want to......... Better put up a much better hill around the big easy. If I were king, I would rebuild it 10 or more miles inland and on highest ground....... We can learn from it can't we. If I built in a spot that proved to be a bad area and was wiped clear, I would opt to relocate it to a better spot. Seems simple and basic. I know a lot of things would need to remain there. It is a port city and an industrial and oil city. I just think for new neighborhoods it would be worth a comute for me anyhow. God bless those that were in harms way....... We will rebuild, we will survive, we are Americans, we don't give up and most important we learn from all we live through....
Sure rebuild it if they want to......... Better put up a much better hill around the big easy. If I were king, I would rebuild it 10 or more miles inland and on highest ground....... We can learn from it can't we. If I built in a spot that proved to be a bad area and was wiped clear, I would opt to relocate it to a better spot. Seems simple and basic. I know a lot of things would need to remain there. It is a port city and an industrial and oil city. I just think for new neighborhoods it would be worth a comute for me anyhow. God bless those that were in harms way....... We will rebuild, we will survive, we are Americans, we don't give up and most important we learn from all we live through....
Sorry, I voted Yes...
I am thoroughly ashamed of myself...
New Orleans should not be rebuilt AS IT WAS.
There must be some major re-engineering of levies, sewerage and storm water controls. Many enormous pumps installed to carry it all away FAST.
Otherwise, I change my vote to NO!
I am thoroughly ashamed of myself...
New Orleans should not be rebuilt AS IT WAS.
There must be some major re-engineering of levies, sewerage and storm water controls. Many enormous pumps installed to carry it all away FAST.
Otherwise, I change my vote to NO!
Ptown Beretta
Moderator
Rich on Nationwide natural disasters:
Man I hate those darned volcanos exploding on a yearly basis. It really starts to get me down.
I challenge anyone to look at a satellite map of New Orleans and NOT realize that their fate was sealed
years ago when that city was settled. Why do we as a nation allow a city to be built below sea level? Why then would we foolishly rebuild again?
Yes, build the HOUSES and HOUSING to the north. Oil fields and what not can be easily dealt with. It is the human problem that is so daunting.
While I sympathize with those that have lost so much, we should not be following the guidance of those that are emotional. It should be those that can see the big picture.
The truth is that they will drain NO and spend billions on making is shiny. Why? Votes. Get over it. In 30 years the town will be looking down yet another barrel. We can only hope that everyone will actually leave.
Man I hate those darned volcanos exploding on a yearly basis. It really starts to get me down.
I challenge anyone to look at a satellite map of New Orleans and NOT realize that their fate was sealed
years ago when that city was settled. Why do we as a nation allow a city to be built below sea level? Why then would we foolishly rebuild again?
Yes, build the HOUSES and HOUSING to the north. Oil fields and what not can be easily dealt with. It is the human problem that is so daunting.
While I sympathize with those that have lost so much, we should not be following the guidance of those that are emotional. It should be those that can see the big picture.
The truth is that they will drain NO and spend billions on making is shiny. Why? Votes. Get over it. In 30 years the town will be looking down yet another barrel. We can only hope that everyone will actually leave.
Ptown Beretta
Moderator
By the way, it is quite easy to keep industry in place but not houses. It is known as a LAW. Don't issue permits. Plant land mines. I don't care. We do it here in Oregon to protect worthless farmland, I think they can do it there with valuable lives.
*post worded to escape the long arm of the law
*post worded to escape the long arm of the law
Denny Hansen
Of course if Wisconsin is hit by a huge snow and ice storm, power and all other services go out, we'll just let everyone freeze to death. Ya'll should not have moved to a cold climate.
And if the power fails in Arizona and there's no AC, we'll let old folks and infants die because they were stupid enough to live in an arid environment.
If a volcano is about to erupt in Hawaii, let's not have a rescue effort to get people out before it blows. Hey, it's their fault for living there.
Many here seem they can separate economics from humanity. Fine. But from a purely economical standpoint, we need to rebuild New Orleans. Unless, of course, you really want to pay ten bucks a gallon for gas.
None of these events result in the complete breakdown of society. In fact any damage as a result of the first two senarios mentoned (Power failure) are usually repaired in less than a week. The volcano, in most cases you don't have 1+ million people living next to it. Sometimes you have to let go of the past and work toward the future.
Of course if Wisconsin is hit by a huge snow and ice storm, power and all other services go out, we'll just let everyone freeze to death. Ya'll should not have moved to a cold climate.
And if the power fails in Arizona and there's no AC, we'll let old folks and infants die because they were stupid enough to live in an arid environment.
If a volcano is about to erupt in Hawaii, let's not have a rescue effort to get people out before it blows. Hey, it's their fault for living there.
Many here seem they can separate economics from humanity. Fine. But from a purely economical standpoint, we need to rebuild New Orleans. Unless, of course, you really want to pay ten bucks a gallon for gas.
None of these events result in the complete breakdown of society. In fact any damage as a result of the first two senarios mentoned (Power failure) are usually repaired in less than a week. The volcano, in most cases you don't have 1+ million people living next to it. Sometimes you have to let go of the past and work toward the future.
joab said:
Could you please explain what is meant by "as much or more as"?
Did you mean "as much or more than"?
If you meant it the way I rephrased it, you are saying that New Orleans' economic contribution (I guess you mean gross product?) is AT LEAST as much as ANY other city, and if not equal, it's MORE than. That means, N.O. is the GREATEST contributor, and if not the greatest, it is not less than equal to any other city at all.
Wow.
You may have just meant that New Orleans is no less significant for its own contribution than any other city, but the way you phrased it sounds more like a frivolous claim to grandiosity.
-blackmind
Denny Hansen said:
Hurray for the appearance of hysterics and emotion in the discussion.
What the hell does the WTC have to do with New Orleans?
The WTC occupies what, like an acre?
Did hundreds of thousands of people and homes disappear or become ruins overnight there?
Do you really need help seeing the radical logistical differences between rebuilding one and rebuilding the other?
How much rebuilding our nose to spite our face should we do?
How much is too much to pour into a losing proposition -- a city that will forever stand exposed to utter ruin at the whim of nature?
People say that the climate is only going to get worse, ocean/gulf warming up spawning more severe storms, etc. And you think that we should rebuild just to show what? Our bravado? Our gumption?
More like hubris.
-blackmind
sterno said:
Wow. While I can sympathize with your personal loss and uncertainty, I have to say that it does not seem real mature to lash out the way you did, just because people are voicing their honest opinions about the subject. And to WISH bad fortune on such people... that's really bad form. Is that all you've come away from this with?
-blackmind
Rich L said:
The national debate is certain to come, Rich, but the question was posed here, now. Should everyone have just edged away from the thread, murmuring, "It's too soon and very impolite to discuss that even in a hypothetical sense just yet"?
How much later should that discussion take place, Rich?
These people probably don't have much in the way of savings to sustain them wherever they have currently gone for the time being. If we wait til "much later" to even begin to discuss whether to rebuild the city they were living in, won't they already be doing something, somewhere, obviating the need to figure out the dilemma? They are not waiting somewhere in limbo. Some of them are going to be like, "Okay, I found me a job in Dallas when I fled my New Orleans home; why even go back now?"
The rest of the country can absorb the population if it spreads itself out sorta evenly to other locations. I believe that's what'll happen. It's kind of a natural sorting-out that just ... happens.
Oh, I disagree. None of your scenarios utterly destroy an entire city and just about every shred of infrastructure and just about every home and business. None. Your examples are not even close to being on the mark. There seem to be very few places in the world that are subject to this kind of "it's bound to happen sooner or later" total catastrophe.
Much has already been said about the question of how many times should we be willing to rebuild right in harm's way. This is a situation that cries out for us to be circumspect, and emotionally detached. What good will come of it if we plop thousands of families back down in a New Orleans rebuilt to be just like it was, if in five years the same blasted thing happens?
THEN will you listen to us "a-holes" who voted "NO"?
You are not the person from whom I expected maudlin melodrama.
That one was over the top.
-blackmind