Odd situations do happen. There was the citizen who defended the police officer in the trailer park with a 100+yd revolver shot recently. The high-profile example would be the Fairchild AFB shooting in 1994, where an AF SP killed the shooter with a 70+ yard head shot with his M9.
Real self defense
- Thread starter rodeo roy
- Start date
I think there is another level to be considered even before you get to the being aware of what is around you phase.
I start by choosing where I live and what i do for a living. Detroit and drug dealer were not on my list.
Given that I live where I do and earn my keep the way I do, there are places that I don't go if I can help it. There are times that I am not running around away from home if possible. There are people i stay away from whenever I can.
(Like someone's grandmother said, "Ain't nothin' good happens after midnight.")
When those conditions cannot be met, I start paying a lot more attention. I am not walking around a shopping mall in Longview like I was on a patrol overseas.
I start by choosing where I live and what i do for a living. Detroit and drug dealer were not on my list.
Given that I live where I do and earn my keep the way I do, there are places that I don't go if I can help it. There are times that I am not running around away from home if possible. There are people i stay away from whenever I can.
(Like someone's grandmother said, "Ain't nothin' good happens after midnight.")
When those conditions cannot be met, I start paying a lot more attention. I am not walking around a shopping mall in Longview like I was on a patrol overseas.
Consider the people that do live in Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans and other urban cities. The people that live there and work there may have a better sense of awareness than someone from a rural or less crime infested city. As far as I know Chicago has no carry law or it's very limited, so carrying a gun can make you a bad guy too, but would you rather be caught without one.
People in those type of places have places within that city they won't go into and people they won't go around just like anyone anywhere else. People that work in those cities still gotta be able to protect what they work for and themselves and families, so when you go to places like that I would think in some cases it may be safer than you think cause likely everybody that can carry is carrying, and I would think that would make the bg think twice.
Some of the worst shootings as far as mass type don't happen as much in the cities that have the biggest crime stigma, wonder why. Could it be cause everybody in those cities got a gun and would stop that threat.
People in those type of places have places within that city they won't go into and people they won't go around just like anyone anywhere else. People that work in those cities still gotta be able to protect what they work for and themselves and families, so when you go to places like that I would think in some cases it may be safer than you think cause likely everybody that can carry is carrying, and I would think that would make the bg think twice.
Some of the worst shootings as far as mass type don't happen as much in the cities that have the biggest crime stigma, wonder why. Could it be cause everybody in those cities got a gun and would stop that threat.
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I don't disagree with the above post. It's just that people tend to preach awareness at what I'd call a low or tactical level (like looking for escape routes and things like that). I think you can minimize the need for that if you are aware of things on a grander scale.
I think you start by being aware of the consequences of where you tend to live and work and what you do. It isn't always easy to change these things. However, it is something one might consider.
Once those issues are decided, I think you should be aware of where you go, when you go there, what you do and who you hang around with. For example, if I am leaving to drive somwhere before the sun comes up, I fill up the car the day before - no need to be at some "stop and rob" out on the highway in the dark if some prior planning can avoid it.
That leaves you with situations that are less risky. Or you could say there is less chance of having something bad happen. I'm not saying you don't have to aware of what's around you, but you shouldn't have to be wound tighter than a two dollar watch all the time either. That can lead to bad decisions.
My goal is to depart this life having never had to defend myself or even having threatened to do so. I don't even want to have come close to doing so if I can help it.
The way to do that - in my opinion - is to be aware of potential consequences at a fairly grand scale and try to mitigate risk at that level.
I think you start by being aware of the consequences of where you tend to live and work and what you do. It isn't always easy to change these things. However, it is something one might consider.
Once those issues are decided, I think you should be aware of where you go, when you go there, what you do and who you hang around with. For example, if I am leaving to drive somwhere before the sun comes up, I fill up the car the day before - no need to be at some "stop and rob" out on the highway in the dark if some prior planning can avoid it.
That leaves you with situations that are less risky. Or you could say there is less chance of having something bad happen. I'm not saying you don't have to aware of what's around you, but you shouldn't have to be wound tighter than a two dollar watch all the time either. That can lead to bad decisions.
My goal is to depart this life having never had to defend myself or even having threatened to do so. I don't even want to have come close to doing so if I can help it.
The way to do that - in my opinion - is to be aware of potential consequences at a fairly grand scale and try to mitigate risk at that level.
At least in Chicago, "everyone that can carry" consists of LEOs and licensed security workers on the job. That's not very many people. Of course, a fair number of gang-bangers will be carrying, as well. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, and the only people I knew who carried firearms were cops. The idea of an average joe carrying was such a foreign concept that the local news did a special story on it when they found someone who figured out the "unloaded concealed carry" loophole. The news wasn't going with the "look at this intelligent guy" angle either!
Frank Ettin
Administrator
We do not encourage or condone illegal conduct here.rodeo roy said:
And do you have any actual evidence that in places where ordinary people can not legally carry guns substantial numbers of otherwise honest people are violating the law and carrying guns?rodeo roy said:
scrubcedar
New member
To back Franks original point, let me offer a scenario that I was involved in. My wife, children ( ranging from 4-7 years old), and I were walking down the sixteenth street mall in Denver. This is a outdoor mall, fairly upscale, in downtown Denver.
As we were walking in larger crowds In an urban setting, I was maintaining a little higher awareness than usual. I became aware that there were two people who seemed to be pacing us, on our side of the street. I decided I had a sudden interest in the window display in front of me and stopped us all right there, sure enough both of them stopped, glanced at each other, then at someone else across the street that I had noticed before as well.
Fairly typical looking teenagers, it would have been easy to miss them. At this point I KNEW from their anxiety and the general "I'm up to no good" look they all had that something was up here. At that point I moved the wife and children behind me up next to the wall, my annoyed wife asking me what exactly I was doing. I announced in a loud voice that was meant to carry" we are not moving anywhere until those three following us leave, that one there, that one there, and that one across the street!", pointing as I talked. The three looked at each other again, guilt unmistakable, and ran off in three different directions.
This was before cell phones and concealed carry laws became common, yet I don't know if I would act differently now. My actions forestalled a physical confrontation, headed it off at the pass so to speak. The best fight in my opinion being the one you don't have. Nowadays the temptation would be strong to continue to lead them and call LE hoping to catch and remove the predators knowing that I go into those situations armed. That would be the testosterone in me talking, and I am now old enough to use the proper label for it, moronic stupidity.
Listen to grumpy old uncle scrub, fight only when you have to, run if you can, and remember THE ONLY WAY YOU GET MULTIPLE CHOICES IS TO PAY ATTENTION!
As we were walking in larger crowds In an urban setting, I was maintaining a little higher awareness than usual. I became aware that there were two people who seemed to be pacing us, on our side of the street. I decided I had a sudden interest in the window display in front of me and stopped us all right there, sure enough both of them stopped, glanced at each other, then at someone else across the street that I had noticed before as well.
Fairly typical looking teenagers, it would have been easy to miss them. At this point I KNEW from their anxiety and the general "I'm up to no good" look they all had that something was up here. At that point I moved the wife and children behind me up next to the wall, my annoyed wife asking me what exactly I was doing. I announced in a loud voice that was meant to carry" we are not moving anywhere until those three following us leave, that one there, that one there, and that one across the street!", pointing as I talked. The three looked at each other again, guilt unmistakable, and ran off in three different directions.
This was before cell phones and concealed carry laws became common, yet I don't know if I would act differently now. My actions forestalled a physical confrontation, headed it off at the pass so to speak. The best fight in my opinion being the one you don't have. Nowadays the temptation would be strong to continue to lead them and call LE hoping to catch and remove the predators knowing that I go into those situations armed. That would be the testosterone in me talking, and I am now old enough to use the proper label for it, moronic stupidity.
Listen to grumpy old uncle scrub, fight only when you have to, run if you can, and remember THE ONLY WAY YOU GET MULTIPLE CHOICES IS TO PAY ATTENTION!
Which part condones illegal activity?
People in Chicago surely carry some use loopholes in the laws others openly break the law. Having lived in Chicago, owned a business in Chicago, my sister, aunts and many close cousins live in Chicago. One cousin is a Sgt. w/ Chicago PD. I'm in Chicago often it's a short 6 hour drive from my home in Detroit. 5hrs 38min from my driveway to her front door about 3blocks down lake shore dr from McCormick place.
I would say I have a good read on what happens in both places. I know more than a few realtors and insurance professionals that own and likely carry handguns and they know the law in Chicago.
As far as in my hometown, due to the nature of my work I do see lots of people that own guns that don't have carry permits, at least some of them do carry at least if you believe the news.
I have also been to New Orleans a lot, lived in Atlanta, and Jamaica (Queens). Jacksonville. Fla and DC for about 90 days each
I believe in the laws of the government which I live, personally I don't break them I got waaay too much to lose, I'd be lying to say I don't know people that do break them.
People in Chicago surely carry some use loopholes in the laws others openly break the law. Having lived in Chicago, owned a business in Chicago, my sister, aunts and many close cousins live in Chicago. One cousin is a Sgt. w/ Chicago PD. I'm in Chicago often it's a short 6 hour drive from my home in Detroit. 5hrs 38min from my driveway to her front door about 3blocks down lake shore dr from McCormick place.
I would say I have a good read on what happens in both places. I know more than a few realtors and insurance professionals that own and likely carry handguns and they know the law in Chicago.
As far as in my hometown, due to the nature of my work I do see lots of people that own guns that don't have carry permits, at least some of them do carry at least if you believe the news.
I have also been to New Orleans a lot, lived in Atlanta, and Jamaica (Queens). Jacksonville. Fla and DC for about 90 days each
I believe in the laws of the government which I live, personally I don't break them I got waaay too much to lose, I'd be lying to say I don't know people that do break them.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Well perhaps you'd like to explain the loopholes to us.rodeo roy said:
sigcurious
New member
Rodeo roy, am I to understand that you're trying to say that Detroit does not have a violent crime problem because so many people carry legally and illegally?
It seems that you are unfamiliar with the law in IL and Chicago. You cannot carry in IL unless you are LE or security, you couldn't even have a handgun in Chicago until a couple of years ago. To say that anyone, that's not part of the previously stipulated categories, carries legally via some loophole in Chicago is flat out wrong.
It seems that you are unfamiliar with the law in IL and Chicago. You cannot carry in IL unless you are LE or security, you couldn't even have a handgun in Chicago until a couple of years ago. To say that anyone, that's not part of the previously stipulated categories, carries legally via some loophole in Chicago is flat out wrong.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Because as far as I know, there are no loopholes under the law in Chicago, or Illinois for that matter, that would allow an ordinary person to legally carry a loaded gun concealed in public.rodeo roy said:
My concern is that insofar as possible accurate information be provided on this board. If you claim that there are loopholes that permit an ordinary person to carry a loaded gun concealed in Chicago, it's not unreasonable to expect you to provide evidence supporting that claim. Otherwise folks reading your posts might be misled to their detriment.
And if there are no such loopholes, your statement in post 24 (emphasis added):
While it's true that as long as you're keeping it to yourself, what you know or don't know is none of my concern. But when you post here, whether or not what you post is accurate is very much my concern.rodeo roy said:
Detroit has a violent crime problem to be sure. People here have responded by arming themselves some do legally others make a choice to do it anyway hoping the police will go easy.
Open carry is allowed here in some places so you see grandpa and grandma carrying in the supermarket. The bad guy really don't know who got a gun and who don't. With that said lots of desperate people take chances a really weekly some bg is getting shot by an armed citizen.
People I know in Chicago carry unloaded guns some in locked trunks, I've known some that "work " for security companies. One lady started a company. I consider those as loopholes.
Frank you do a good job at citing post please cite my post that I personally condoned any illegal activity there or any where. I know it has happen, I've seen it first hand.
Your board your rules
Open carry is allowed here in some places so you see grandpa and grandma carrying in the supermarket. The bad guy really don't know who got a gun and who don't. With that said lots of desperate people take chances a really weekly some bg is getting shot by an armed citizen.
People I know in Chicago carry unloaded guns some in locked trunks, I've known some that "work " for security companies. One lady started a company. I consider those as loopholes.
Frank you do a good job at citing post please cite my post that I personally condoned any illegal activity there or any where. I know it has happen, I've seen it first hand.
Your board your rules
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sigcurious
New member
So you equate legally transporting a firearm to carrying? Or setting up a company to carry a "loophole", even though they would have to be on duty to carry. Doesn't seem like much a loop hole, sounds like running a security business and carrying during the performance of your duties. If they're carrying otherwise, they're doing it illegally.
Just to be clear these are the exemptions for security guards etc.
Source
Just to be clear these are the exemptions for security guards etc.
Source
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
I did. I'll do it again -- your statement in post 24 (emphasis added):rodeo roy said:
FireForged
New member
This is exactly the kind of posts that I enjoy reading here at TFL. It reminds us of a common sense way of thinking that is instilled in most people from the time they were young. It doesnt have to have code names or initials
Just for clarification.
FBI stats for the top five most violent cities in the US with a population over 50,000
1)Camden NJ
2)Flint Mich.
3)Saginaw Mich.
4)Detroit Mich.
5)St. Louis
FWIW...Flint Mich. still holds the dubious honor of being ranked for the 2nd consecutive year as holding the #1 spot for cities with a populace of 100,000 or more people.
I don't think the thugs in Detroit/Flint Michigan much care whether the average Joe is carrying or not.
Too, I have relatives/friends that are MSP that work in Detroit Metro(aka, 'the war zone' to most Mich. LE) and they will tell you that the thugs there would just as soon shoot at LE then anyone else that gets in their way.
FBI stats for the top five most violent cities in the US with a population over 50,000
1)Camden NJ
2)Flint Mich.
3)Saginaw Mich.
4)Detroit Mich.
5)St. Louis
FWIW...Flint Mich. still holds the dubious honor of being ranked for the 2nd consecutive year as holding the #1 spot for cities with a populace of 100,000 or more people.
I don't think the thugs in Detroit/Flint Michigan much care whether the average Joe is carrying or not.
Too, I have relatives/friends that are MSP that work in Detroit Metro(aka, 'the war zone' to most Mich. LE) and they will tell you that the thugs there would just as soon shoot at LE then anyone else that gets in their way.
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Oooops...sorry p loader.
1) Situational awareness is very important.
2) Using common sense as to when and where we travel in our daily lives can greatly reduce our chances of encounters with BG's.
Hmm...you said 2 or 3...okay
3) Practice SD shooting at distance's out to 50yds.
You'll have to settle for 4
4) If you have to shoot in SD, you damn well must be able to prove your(or someone nearby) lives were in danger.
How's that?
