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Reacting with your CCW
- Thread starter praetorian97
- Start date
MikeNice81
New member
I've worked at a few PD ranges in my time. I can say the same for LE.
At the last interdepartmental active shooter training we had there was a ND. One guy trying to be a show off nearly ended another LEO's career and life. He missed by just a few inches.
There are idiots every where.
WANT A LCR 22LR
New member
" In those 10 years, carrying both on and off duty, I had only one time to use my weapon. (Armed robbery that turned into a gunfight - Armed robber lost.) Most CC's will never have to draw their weapon, and never have to shoot anyone.... "
I'll make a mild counter that there can't be a direct comparison to on duty firearm use and citizen firing for defense. The likelihood of a uniformed officer getting robbed / car jacked seems pretty slim whereas a non officer is a prime target ( but still has a low likelihood of engaging a threat ).
But, a officer is closer to BG in the process of committing a crime. I'd think the BG's primary goal is to escape and those that stand their ground are few.
I'll make a mild counter that there can't be a direct comparison to on duty firearm use and citizen firing for defense. The likelihood of a uniformed officer getting robbed / car jacked seems pretty slim whereas a non officer is a prime target ( but still has a low likelihood of engaging a threat ).
But, a officer is closer to BG in the process of committing a crime. I'd think the BG's primary goal is to escape and those that stand their ground are few.
Its comforting to know there were two people [in Tuscon] that held their fire. On the flip side of that. I could be Mr. Pessimistic but I lean towards people like that are the minority of CCW holders.
Don't think so. The average ccw would be LESS inclined to open fire and get their gun involved.
moose_nukelz
New member
A couple things from an LEO point of view
1. Like Glenn said, it doesn't matter how good your intentions are if your shots miss the bad guy and hit an innocent bystander. Imagine if someone else with "good intentions" missed and ended up shooting one of your family members.
2. Police do not like surprises when it comes to anything weapon related. If you do get into a gun fight, as soon as it is safe to do so call 911 and give a physical description of your self so law enforcement know what you look like and fully comply with what ever they tell you to do.
1. Like Glenn said, it doesn't matter how good your intentions are if your shots miss the bad guy and hit an innocent bystander. Imagine if someone else with "good intentions" missed and ended up shooting one of your family members.
2. Police do not like surprises when it comes to anything weapon related. If you do get into a gun fight, as soon as it is safe to do so call 911 and give a physical description of your self so law enforcement know what you look like and fully comply with what ever they tell you to do.
Hog Buster
New member
Concerning the 10% cops
I would be remiss if I said that the department I was a member of, about 1000 commissioned, didn’t have some “Ten Percenters”, maybe not a true 10%, but a few. Most times the psychological, background, neighbor inquiry or trip to the psychologist tests weeded those out during the recruitment process. The one year probation also weeded out most of the rest. Plus I never recall anyone in my department hungering for a shootout with some bad guy and being armed for a trip to a combat zone just in case.
On the other hand in the city of about 300,000 just about anyone could get a CCW with fingerprints, fifty dollars and attendance to a sometimes dubious CCW class.
You figure the percentages........Gun happy cop vs. Gun happy CCW.
I would be remiss if I said that the department I was a member of, about 1000 commissioned, didn’t have some “Ten Percenters”, maybe not a true 10%, but a few. Most times the psychological, background, neighbor inquiry or trip to the psychologist tests weeded those out during the recruitment process. The one year probation also weeded out most of the rest. Plus I never recall anyone in my department hungering for a shootout with some bad guy and being armed for a trip to a combat zone just in case.
On the other hand in the city of about 300,000 just about anyone could get a CCW with fingerprints, fifty dollars and attendance to a sometimes dubious CCW class.
You figure the percentages........Gun happy cop vs. Gun happy CCW.
Headlines and stats just don't seem to support that CCW's with minimal-to-no training get into anymore 'bad shoots' than do the supposedly better trained LEO.
I've routinely shot 98-100% on the local qual course, yet I see cops who can barely meet the minimum standard regularly. Couple this with the fact that most .gov training is geared to qualify a maximum amount of people to a minimum standard in as quick a time (and as few rounds) as possible. Lowest common denominator or LCD training.
While it's true that LE gets more trigger time than CCW's, it's been my experience that most of them would never come to the range if the department wasn't paying them to do so and supplying the ammo.
I pay out-of-pocket, as a citizen, to take training classes as often as my budget allows. There is usually an average of 20 students in the courses I've taken. Of these, usually 1-2 LE, 1-2 Mil, the rest are average citizens.
While some cops will seek out extra training, it isn't the norm either. Heck, the majority of cops I know don't even carry off-duty.
I've routinely shot 98-100% on the local qual course, yet I see cops who can barely meet the minimum standard regularly. Couple this with the fact that most .gov training is geared to qualify a maximum amount of people to a minimum standard in as quick a time (and as few rounds) as possible. Lowest common denominator or LCD training.
While it's true that LE gets more trigger time than CCW's, it's been my experience that most of them would never come to the range if the department wasn't paying them to do so and supplying the ammo.
I pay out-of-pocket, as a citizen, to take training classes as often as my budget allows. There is usually an average of 20 students in the courses I've taken. Of these, usually 1-2 LE, 1-2 Mil, the rest are average citizens.
While some cops will seek out extra training, it isn't the norm either. Heck, the majority of cops I know don't even carry off-duty.
A long post with my earlier thoughts on the subject:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496580&postcount=31
I am a strong proponent of real training, regularly repeated. I think if you carry a gun and don't have real training,* you are nowhere near as well-protected as you think you are... and that you're being foolish if you think you don't need that level of training because you "practice regularly." Without professional training as your baseline, you're almost certainly either practicing the wrong things, failing to practice enough of the right things, or both. You, personally, will be much safer and much better able to protect yourself and the people you love when you get that training.
That said, there's literally NO evidence that any level of required training makes a difference to the safety of other people. Every time a new CCW law passes, the media goes nuts with the "blood running in the streets!" arguments. And every time, with or without training, the argument has been proved invalid. Follow the link to my other post for the full development of this thought (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496580&postcount=31).
pax
* Read: at least 18 hrs and preferably over 40 hrs of time with a professional firearms training school, not just from the NRA guy down the street. Then get an 8-hr refresher at least once a year.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496580&postcount=31
I am a strong proponent of real training, regularly repeated. I think if you carry a gun and don't have real training,* you are nowhere near as well-protected as you think you are... and that you're being foolish if you think you don't need that level of training because you "practice regularly." Without professional training as your baseline, you're almost certainly either practicing the wrong things, failing to practice enough of the right things, or both. You, personally, will be much safer and much better able to protect yourself and the people you love when you get that training.
That said, there's literally NO evidence that any level of required training makes a difference to the safety of other people. Every time a new CCW law passes, the media goes nuts with the "blood running in the streets!" arguments. And every time, with or without training, the argument has been proved invalid. Follow the link to my other post for the full development of this thought (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4496580&postcount=31).
pax
* Read: at least 18 hrs and preferably over 40 hrs of time with a professional firearms training school, not just from the NRA guy down the street. Then get an 8-hr refresher at least once a year.
Training is nice, but shooting isn't like ridding a bicycle. Training itself is useless if there is no follow through, meaning, regardless of what quality class you go to, if you stop there, it does you no good.
You must practice the lessons presented in that training, I don't mean shoot a qualification course once or twice a year. I mean weekly at the minimum. Dry firing is cheap and can be done every day, anywhere.
If you have read any of my post you'll notice one of my pet peeves is the abilities of LE to shoot. On the average, they are trained at the academy, qualify once or twice a year and that's it. Sure there are exceptions, you have those who seem to live in the range. But those are the minority.
The same with those who carry for self defense. They spend big bucks for a high quality training course and that's it. They carry their SD pistol/revolver for months without ever firing it. They are no better then those who get no training.
Let me give you an example. I'm a high power shooter. I use to be pretty good. I retired and moved to Wyoming where I have to drive 300 miles to a match. That's fine. Then gas prices go sky high and I back off. A couple years later I find a match closer to home to attend. Turns out I suck real bad at high power. Not because I haven't been trained, but because I don't practice.
The same thing goes for training and practice for self defense carry.
You must practice the lessons presented in that training, I don't mean shoot a qualification course once or twice a year. I mean weekly at the minimum. Dry firing is cheap and can be done every day, anywhere.
If you have read any of my post you'll notice one of my pet peeves is the abilities of LE to shoot. On the average, they are trained at the academy, qualify once or twice a year and that's it. Sure there are exceptions, you have those who seem to live in the range. But those are the minority.
The same with those who carry for self defense. They spend big bucks for a high quality training course and that's it. They carry their SD pistol/revolver for months without ever firing it. They are no better then those who get no training.
Let me give you an example. I'm a high power shooter. I use to be pretty good. I retired and moved to Wyoming where I have to drive 300 miles to a match. That's fine. Then gas prices go sky high and I back off. A couple years later I find a match closer to home to attend. Turns out I suck real bad at high power. Not because I haven't been trained, but because I don't practice.
The same thing goes for training and practice for self defense carry.
Good discussion. Following are my thoughts:
1) I am a CCW holder as is my wife. We obtained the permits to protect us from overzealous Pinal County Sheriff Deputies and Prosecutors. Without the CCW they can easily will contrive a major felony charge.
2) The RTK is a right and a Responsibility. The citzen has to prepare him or her self to safely handle the situations which arise. If the situation is beyond their ability then they should withdraw if possible and go into a defensive mode if withdrawl is not possible.
3) As a retired Military Officer I believe in hard realistic training.
4) As a citzen I believe that allowing elected officials and bureaucrats to place training requirements on CCW will lead to the abolition of CCWs through administrative fiat. In effect they will make the requirements so stringent that no one will be able to meet the requirements.
5) in closing I am reminded of a conversation I had with an Albequirce, (sorry about the spelling) New Mexico Police Officer. He Said "We can allways tell the good guys after a shooting. The good guy is standing there with his hands in the air and his ID and weapon laying on the ground at his feet. Generally, a bad guy is also lying close by."
Once again good discussion.
1) I am a CCW holder as is my wife. We obtained the permits to protect us from overzealous Pinal County Sheriff Deputies and Prosecutors. Without the CCW they can easily will contrive a major felony charge.
2) The RTK is a right and a Responsibility. The citzen has to prepare him or her self to safely handle the situations which arise. If the situation is beyond their ability then they should withdraw if possible and go into a defensive mode if withdrawl is not possible.
3) As a retired Military Officer I believe in hard realistic training.
4) As a citzen I believe that allowing elected officials and bureaucrats to place training requirements on CCW will lead to the abolition of CCWs through administrative fiat. In effect they will make the requirements so stringent that no one will be able to meet the requirements.
5) in closing I am reminded of a conversation I had with an Albequirce, (sorry about the spelling) New Mexico Police Officer. He Said "We can allways tell the good guys after a shooting. The good guy is standing there with his hands in the air and his ID and weapon laying on the ground at his feet. Generally, a bad guy is also lying close by."
Once again good discussion.
praetorian97
I firmly believe more training should be required to obtain a CCW. Nothing as extensive as what LEO/MIL have to go through, but atleast some exposure to concepts you would need to know. Before anyone gets upset and rambles on about taking away your American right to carry a weapon. Just remember you dont need a CCW to carry a weapon in public.
In many states you do need a CCW to carry in public.
You must distinguish between government mandated training standards to carry a weapon and self-imposed training. I am against some politician or bureaucrat determining what and how much training is proper for me to have the "privilege" of carrying a weapon. Does the state of Illinois (President Obama's home state) or Hawaii have a legal means for citizens to carry handguns in public with or without a CCW?
I know it is desirable that people who carry weapons for self-defense have training which includes the laws of the jurisdiction in which you carry; as well as, training in not only how to shoot but when it is permissible to shoot.
FireForged
New member
Two - I worry about pulling out my weapon to neutralize a threat and be mistaken for an additional gunman by LEO or another CCW holder in the heat of the moment.
and this is exactly why I will only display/use a firearm a situation where I "must" use it to survive. If its a case where I "must", then I will take whatever comes with it and still sleep good at night.
praetorian97
New member
I should reiterate my stance on this a little better as I can see some have interpreted my poorly worded thoughts as "We should put everyone through boot camp and charge them phenomenal fees to obtain their CCW"
To word it better. Require THE INSTRUCTOR of the ALREADY in place course to discuss topics such as firing in a scattering crowd, dealing with LEO arriving on scene, etc… so WHEN THE REPSONSIBLE CCW owner is on his/her own they know what to train for on their own time?
I agree you can’t make everyone do the right thing. But at least exposing people to certain thoughts does not make them worse for the experience. Even if you only get across to 4 out of 10 new CCW persons, that’s 4 more that are better educated carrying on the streets.
To word it better. Require THE INSTRUCTOR of the ALREADY in place course to discuss topics such as firing in a scattering crowd, dealing with LEO arriving on scene, etc… so WHEN THE REPSONSIBLE CCW owner is on his/her own they know what to train for on their own time?
I agree you can’t make everyone do the right thing. But at least exposing people to certain thoughts does not make them worse for the experience. Even if you only get across to 4 out of 10 new CCW persons, that’s 4 more that are better educated carrying on the streets.
kazanski612
New member
I agree. Nearly every driver on the road today, myself included, should have WAY more training that they/we do.More poorly trained people with a drivers license cause harm than poorly trained people with CCW's. I saw a few on the road today.
I didn't get shot up by anyone with minimum training today.
Do we need to require NASCAR-type training for Diver's Ed?
And like Pax, I agree that shooters are in the same boat. But I also think requiring said training is neither Constitutional nor would result in a "safer society."
We're adults - we should all know what we need and don't need. I don't want the government making that decision for me.
An interesting thing to keep in mind is that in something like 90% (or 98%?) of cases involving a firearm in self defense it isn't even fired. Just the presence of a firearm deters the attack or crime. Whether the person is trained or not just them having the gun available and visible when needed helps tremendously in deterring crime against them.
Now in the very small percentage of cases in which a firearm is shot in SD, I wonder what the breakout is between cases in which there is little danger to others (inside a room, alley or other confined space, or alone on the street, etc) and those times when the SD shooting happens with other innocents are around. I suspect most crimes are going to eb when the victim is alone or isolated.
So the times when a CCW person would potentiallyb e shooting in SD with other people around may be a fraction of 1%?
Now in the very small percentage of cases in which a firearm is shot in SD, I wonder what the breakout is between cases in which there is little danger to others (inside a room, alley or other confined space, or alone on the street, etc) and those times when the SD shooting happens with other innocents are around. I suspect most crimes are going to eb when the victim is alone or isolated.
So the times when a CCW person would potentiallyb e shooting in SD with other people around may be a fraction of 1%?
secret_agent_man
Moderator
I am against some politician or bureaucrat determining what and how much training is proper for me to have the "privilege" of carrying a weapon.
The Founding Fathers apparently did not feel any was necessary. So who are the bureaucrats to argue with them?
They mentioned it is MUCH higher of a risk then being mistaken as the bad guy from a cop.
When was the last time you heard about something like that happening on the news?
("Blood running in the streets!" "Shootouts over parking places!" "Dangerous law-abiding CCW holder kills hostages, bad guy escapes!")
pax
Responding to initial (1st comment) not I'n any way do I believe that ccw holders should have to go thru more comprehensive scenarios or shooting situations! Ccw holders have completed their states requirements and have been law abiding citizens so they can carry concealed to defend theirselves, loved ones or others who are I'n need to stop the threat. Now someones says to make it more technical to get licensed??? What about older folks or females I'n general? Maybe they just shouldn't be outside? Or do exactly what the bad guy says until after he's through and if he doesn't kill you then I guess they can file a report huh. C'mon man. People like this who ask questions like this is where I wonder if they should have been able to carry! And if you want to do your Extra practice do so. And to answer your other, if you have to brandish it to stop a threat or actually use your weapon. When the police show up, if you still have it out I would ask you to drop it and leave hands up. Please do exactly as I say!!!! We don't know all details yet and do everything to protect ourselves as well as others. So we have to do everything to take control first and then get things sorted out.
praetorian97
New member
Actually Pax it does happen. I'm not in LE but I work in the field and hear stories from time to time. I recently heard a story on NPR that sparked the thought. Quick synopsis. Bunch of LE chasing a shooting BG through woods. Undercover shows up. LE mistake Undercover for BG and beat the crap out of guy. Once they realized it was a friendly all of a sudden everyone disappeared.