Reacting with your CCW

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praetorian97

New member
The Airplane CCW topic kind of sparked a few thoughts in my mind and I would like to hear what everyone else thinks about the topic.

I have been a CCW holder for about 10 years now. I dont exercise my right to carry very often as I live in a pretty mellow and safe community.

Lets use something like the Loughner/Wal-Mart shooting scenario. This brings up two things for me personally.

One - I run through drills almost every weekend and I still dont think I or any "average" CCW permit holder can handle a crowd scattering in front and behind your intended target. I don't want to be at Wal-Mart with my 1 year old daughter dodging two shooters. I firmly believe more training should be required to obtain a CCW. Nothing as extensive as what LEO/MIL have to go through, but atleast some exposure to concepts you would need to know. Before anyone gets upset and rambles on about taking away your American right to carry a weapon. Just remember you dont need a CCW to carry a weapon in public.

Two - I worry about pulling out my weapon to neutralize a threat and be mistaken for an additional gunman by LEO or another CCW holder in the heat of the moment.

What are your thoughts?


Disclaimer: I love guns and believe its everyone's right to carry.
 
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As far as being mistaken for an active shooter by police, I think that's fairly unlikely given police response times, in general.

Part of gun safety as it was taught to me is being aware of what's in front of and behind your target, which applies to shooting inside a walmart type of place. It's your responsibility to make that determination.

As for extra training for CCW permits, I don't really buy the hype that 1 class would make any real difference, especially since most people will never attend another one or practice the skills they learned. On a side note, LE/military don't always receive the most amazing firearms training. Most of the advanced training is going to people who are actively pursuing it, and that's the minority.
 
Lets use something like the Loughner/Wal-Mart shooting scenario.
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Well in a case like this the guys shooting everyone in sight so it seems one would have little recourse as to stand by could mean your or your loved one gets shot and certainly people around you are a bad way.

The Bill of Rights makes no demands of training but I think any responsible person would practice and seek training as appropriate. (If it were the world according to me every lawful person over 21 would be required to own a firearm.)

Keep in mind most SD situations occur at very close ranges and as a generally accepted rule of thought you would have to be in the immediate threat area to meet the legal requirements of most states to employ deadly force to stop the attack. (I am not a lawyer, this is not a legal opinion)

You would certainly be in a worse way if you had no firearm in this situation...
 
IIRC, there were two or three armed citizens at the Arizona tragedy. They held their fire because they didn't have a clean shot at Loughner. Apparently these people made good decisions based on whatever amount of training they had.

I understand your point, but I don't think you can legislate responsibility, thought, or coolness under pressure. We are better off with than without people among the citizenry that can react to a threat.
 
I am not about more laws and more restrictions on firearms by any means. I think whats going on in some states such as CA is pretty ridiculous. However I run into people I dont even feel comfortable being next to at the range. I cant imagine them in a life or flight situation. "You see here what's going to happen is. Cousin Bubba and I are going to take out dat der bad guy. Maybe my Cousin Suzie will be so impressed she will finally marry me."

I like what tailgator brought up. Its comforting to know there were two people that held their fire. On the flip side of that. I could be Mr. Pessimistic but I lean towards people like that are the minority of CCW holders. BTW I wont hold you being a UOF fan against you ;) Sorry had to throw that in there. Best friend of mine is an alumni there.
 
I had expected more tactical discussion in my CCW class (I mean tactical in a non-mall-ninja way). That said, requiring more training will produce cost. Do you think poor people with common sense and TFL access should be excluded by expensive training requirements?

Our instructor said he is in favor of our state's class requirement to renew a CCW. This is because he finds himself retraining people who haven't shot in five years. I see how more training would certainly be good.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to see it mandated. The culture can self-regulate...

Though, every day I see comments on here, THR, and Reddit from people with tactical savvy that make me question whether tactical training or knowledge really makes a practical difference at all ;) .


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The cost is a great point. Especially in this economy. Every state is different but I know ID requires a handgun training course if you dont meet other requirements. It would not add to the cost to add a scenario portion to the training for a wal-mart type situation. You could even utilize the other people taking the class.

Something as simple as putting them through an exercise that simulates this could be an eye opener for them to be responsible as well as give them that much more exposure.
 
praetorian97 said:
I have been a CCW holder for about 10 years now. I dont exercise my right to carry very often as I live in a pretty mellow and safe community.
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Just because you live in a pretty mellow community does not mean that you might not need to defend yourself there one day. Bad things happen everywhere, and there is no disputing that IMO. You are lucky that you are able to carry where you live. Here in IL we do not have that right.

The Wal-Mart scenario you came up with is extremely vague. Just because one has a CCW does not mean that they are going to open fire on another shooter inside of a Wal-Mart. In fact I would be willing to bet most people would rather avoid the shooter even if they had a CCW. There are lots of things to take into consideration…and you don’t have to be a hero to protect yourself or your family.

If you are carrying and someone starts shooting random people in a public area; you might be forced to make some very tough decisions very quickly. If you are not prepared (mentally and physically) you should not be carrying a weapon period. If you don’t practice with your weapon you should probably also not be carrying a weapon. At the end of the day, those are decisions that no one else can make for you because carrying a weapon is your right and your choice.
 
I understand things can happen anytime and anywhere.

Extremely Vague?

It was a real life situation that I felt everyone was familiar with. To summarize it. Crazy person shooting at people. People running everywhere in mass hysteria in the close confines of a shopping store.

The two points after that I would like to hear thoughts about are 1. People carrying concealed drawing to try and take out someone such as Loughner without causing more carnage. And 2. Would you worry about other CCW/LEO there mistaking you for an accomplice to the said crazy person?
 
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I don't believe in requiring more training to carry a firearm. It is a Constitutional right. Should the citizen be trained and is it the responsible thing to do? Absolutely.

Every carry situation is different. If you've got a crowd scattering in front of you and three guys with AKs as assailants and all you have is a .380 you're going to react differently than if you're a store clerk being robbed by some punk with a knife.
 
Requiring more training is coming off as an "extreme".

Right now we are already required to pay for a training course if you dont meet your local requirements and pay on avg $50 for the background and permit. Why not add a real life scenario portion to what you already have to do?
 
No worries. Internet banter leaves out tone. I have already had some insight given to me from this topic.

I hope no one takes this as someone advocating rules/regulation to take their guns and rights away. Just general thoughts on topic.
 
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To the OP: NOT buying your argument in the least.

1) You simply DO NOT fire in a crowd, even if your life is in danger. You run, as they do.

2) You simply DO NOT draw your weapon when there's LEO's onsite to deal with the problem. Why would you?? Take cover or run as the others do. Let the LEO's onsite deal with the problem.

Please -- you're not even trying. Do you have any common sense? IF YOU THINK YOU need more training, go read more books, take gun safety courses, what ever YOU THINK YOU NEED to properly defend your self WITHOUT DANGERING OTHERS.

I don't need extra training in this. I rely on my common sense. And I don't need people who have so much self doubt to speak for me.
 
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I see your point

You bring up a valid point but I dont think mandating training is the answer. There are many folks that take the permit training and never fire their weapon again as they veiw it as a tool and not a hobby. I dont have alot of faith in these folks.
My opinion is every responsable CCW holder is morally obligated to train with their weapon to undersdtand their limitations.
 
I have a CCW license issued from Fairax County, Virginia. The certificate for minimum training required was obtained from a $29.00 online basic gun safety course. Think about it!

This county has a fairly well funded tax revenue / tax base as the per capita income is higher than average compared to other places in the states.

If Fairfax county offered a voluntary training course - I would attend it. I do not advocate mandatory training, but for the folks who paid good money for their license (my application processing fee was $50.00) I think it would be great if part of that money funded a county or state sponsored course.
 
I firmly believe more training should be required to obtain a CCW. Nothing as extensive as what LEO/MIL have to go through, but atleast some exposure to concepts you would need to know. Before anyone gets upset and rambles on about taking away your American right to carry a weapon. Just remember you dont need a CCW to carry a weapon in public.
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i have to agree. i say that because since CCW permits were made easier to obtain in my state, local gunshops have been herding people into classes like cattle and they sign your safety cert whether you can handle a gun safely or not since you paid them their money.

i don't want to be in the same zip code when one of these 'tards that's never handled a gun before or after the ccw safety class feels threatened and starts filling the air with lead. :eek:
 
I firmly believe more training should be required to obtain a CCW.
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No, No,,,
A thousand times, no!

This would open the door for the anti's to price carrying a gun out of the average person's reach,,,
It would be the same thing as when they try to put a prohibitive tax on ammunition.

I want to say I think practical training is a great idea in theory,,,
I would like to see every person attend more training prior to carrying
But in practice it would be a very bad thing to initiate state mandated training.

My fear is that it is the perfect way for the Anti's to sneak in more requirements,,,
I mean if we, the pro-gunners, can't agree on it's worth or need,,,
The Anti's would use that divisive argument against us.

I do not want to see that camel's nose trying to worm it's way into my tent.

Before anyone gets upset and rambles on about taking away your American right to carry a weapon. Just remember you dont need a CCW to carry a weapon in public.
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In many states (maybe the majority) and certainly in my state,,,
Open carry is prohibited so concealed carry is the only option.

Aarond
 
The issue of RKBA, and CCW availability, is about personal liberty not public safety. We have to accept that with individual freedom there is inherent risks.

You could make the same arguments for voting. And I would lean toward limiting voting for only taxpayers! (Lean, not actually support it). But the bottom line is a citizen should have the liberties to speak their mind, assemble, practice their religion, be armed, etc. without being required to pass some government test or requirement.

Second issue is how complicated of a scenario is a CCW person expected to be trained to handle under real life attack efore being "approved"? In order to be licensed to be armed so you can protect your self/family from robbery, etc. should you also be certified as trained for terrorist attacks? For assassinations at public gatherings? For gang hits? Just how much training will be sufficient for all possible events? The scenarios mentioned are rare exceptions compared to the more mundane robbery, street crime, etc.

As responsible persons we should try to be as proficient as possible to handle our weapons safely in self defense. But, like police forces, we have lots of other things demanding our time and most of us cannot afford the time or money to get SWAT level training to handle shooting in a crowd. How much time do police officers actually have for practicing shooting in crowds? I bet not that much and should a citizen be expected to have the same level of training?

Ultimately, the CCW license should be given more for the rights of lierty regardless of the public safety issues. If the public is so concerned with related safety issues it should offer public paid training classes rather than imposing more restrictions.
 
+5 to NWPilgrim,,,

Utimately, the CCW license should be given more for the rights of liberty regardless of the public safety issues.
If the public is so concerned with related safety issues it should offer public paid training classes rather than imposing more restrictions.
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Dang!

I wish I would have said that.

In my best John Wayne drawl,,,
Well said Pilgrim.

Aarond
 
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