Re-evaluate CC

I have seen threads like this on other forums, and have often wondered why the emphasis on the size and weight of a concealed carry pistol -- I don't understand the school of thought that says the smaller and lighter the better. I am not a large person, but I can carry a full size 1911 with no problem, and often forget it's there.
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different strokes for different folks. I carry a full size P220, and find it easy to wear and conceal. Sub compacts don't feel right in my gigantic hands, and my grip just seems off. Some people prefer a smaller pistol for their own reasons. When it comes to defending yourself, i say go with what works for you.
 
I've often said this --- carrying a handgun for self-defense is a compromise. The ideal self-defense weapon is a long gun, the exact type and caliber or gauge being debatable.

Factors we compromise on with handguns include size, weight, caliber, recoil, capacity, cost, and more. I often carry a 1911 with a 4.25 inch barrel in .45 acp loaded with Gold Dots or HSTs. However, due to limitations of dress, I will also carry smaller handguns.

I sometimes have a smaller gun because the risk is less. A high risk area demand more firepower. As I sit in my office with security cameras, locked entrances, and police officers down the hallway, my risk is much lower.

If you're not going to carry a gun because it's too big or heavy, you need to consider a smaller gun. Any gun is better than no gun.
 
bt380, without knowing the holster style you prefer and the carry mode this is too open ended. however I will recommend a Walther PPS 9mm in the thin IWB of your choice.
 
i carry a 4.0in .40 SW with 14+1. im a bigger guy. i OC most of the time but do like my foxx and aliengear IWB lather/kydex hybrids. i have no problem comfortably concealing my firearms. i also keep a DB9 in an ankle holster
 
I carry my P30 or Sw99 most of the time so I am covered. I carry my S&W 642 when I dont wear an undershirt. I can still do in a bad guy at 25 yards with the snubbie, even though you really shouldnt be shooting that far in an SD situation.
 
Everybody should carry whatever they want / and what works best for them.

Personally, for me, its a full sized 5" 1911 in .45 acp / mine is a Wilson Combat CQB model....but in a good holster, good belt....its easy to carry ( I prefer Kramer horsehide leather with a forward FBI cant ). Primary reason I carry this gun....its the platform I shoot the best / I train with it weekly / it has a slim profile...and its very reliable / its 12 yrs old now ...and about 20,000 rds thru it..with no issues.:D
 
the 380 typically won't break a pelvic bone (if you agree with Masaad Ayoob).
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With all do respect to Mr Ayoob, why do you want to break the pelvic bone. I attended an autopsy one time where someone was shot in the lower stomach with a standard 38 round. It didn't break the pelvic bone but did rattle around creating quite a mess.

I'm with Pax, shoot a pistol/revolver at distance is more about training and practice the gun.

But self defense at distance??? Sure I agree one should practice for the "just in case" but...........

I have a lady who shows up at my Womans SD Class, She has a Master's in Firearm's Investigation and works for the Wyoming Crime Lab. Kind of a technical advisor.

She's studies hundreds if not thousands of SD shooting, tossing out LE and just using civilian shootings she tells us a huge majority are between 5-6 feet.

Few beyond 3 yards.

I like big guns, carried a 4" Mode 28 for 20 years in LE and a 1911 in the military. But I'm not a cop any more nor am I in the military so I carry for self defense. I learned quickly that a small gun in the pocket beats a big gun in the truck every time.

Yes snub nose 38s are harder to shoot then 4-6" revolvers or autos, but the saving grace is they cheap to shoot, (with loading with cast bullets) so you can learn to shoot them.

Practice Bulls Eye matches with you stubby, you'll be surprised how well it will improve your shooting, not only at distance but close up. A 38 will punch holes in paper at 50 yards, fundamentals will allow you to hit that paper at 50 yards.
 
I recently saw an article, which I can no longer find, that suggested that the odds of breaking the pelvis with a handgun round were essentially nonexistent given the strength of that bone and the oblique angle at which a bullet is likely to hit it.

Which I am inclined to believe.

However, the article also suggested that the pelvis is still an excellent secondary handgun target because of the nerve and blood vessels clustered there. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I believe the author said shock to the nerves in the area had a high likelihood of causing the person shot to fall down.

I may be wrong, again, I can't find that article now.
 
I beleive that there is a correct pistol for different situations. I have 3 different pistols on my CCW Permit.

Ruger SP101 3"
  • Smallest profile of the firearms I carry.
  • can be put in a deep pocket with a pocket holster if I am wearing a tighter shirt and its hot out.

XD40 sub-compact
  • Larger capacity
  • Faster Reloads
  • I prefer to carry this with slightly baggy clothing, best in winter months.

S&W 4506
  • Longer barrel, which should translate into improved accuracy (not so much for me though)
  • Full size firearm that is not reasonable for concealed carry
  • I like this one when I am driving on long trips, it fits between my seat and center console and doesn't move around much.
  • I like the full size 45 ACP capacity and it fits my XXL hands better.

Bottom line, Use the pistol that fits your situation and fits your level of comfort for that situation. Picking one is far to limiting me......just my opinion;)
 
I carry full size or duty size sidearms. Almost always 2 N frame revolvers. I have no problem concealing them.

I would never suggest carrying a 380 its just a 9mil short and I would not carry a 9mil. Sticking one up someones snout would take the fight out of most people. Its not most people I'm worried about though. Meth is prevalent in my area in fact I'm 90% sure a guy a couple blocks away is cooking the crap in his basement. Shows all the signs.

I have seen guys on meth and pcp take magazines full of 9mil and 357 jhps and not slow down. If its not going to go through a big guy and take spine with it its just not for me.
 
but my EDC is normally a little TCP in .380
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I agree with you, I have never understood the knocks on the 380. I practice with 380, 9mm, 38,357,45,and 40 and see that the 380 would be more than capable of stopping a threat. and since Texas still does not have open carry,(might not thanks to a few nut jobs) a 3" 380 is very comfortable.
 
with regards to a pelvic bone break, you cannot stand up with a broken pelvis. plus, there are major blood vessels in the pelvis, it is relatively large area and easy to hit.

while not my aiming point (I use the thoracic triangle), a pelvic shot can stop a threat very quickly. besides, there something about pointing a gun and a man's junk that gives him pause. ;)
 
JERRYS. said:
with regards to a pelvic bone break, you cannot stand up with a broken pelvis. plus, there are major blood vessels in the pelvis, it is relatively large area and easy to hit.

while not my aiming point (I use the thoracic triangle), a pelvic shot can stop a threat very quickly. besides, there something about pointing a gun and a man's junk that gives him pause.
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I agree with you in theory, but as posted above I am skeptical of the ability of most common handgun calibers to break the pelvis.

As to the latter point, as Bill Jordan wrote on the virtues of shooting first from the hip, there's nothing quite as distracting to a fellow as taking a bullet in the belt buckle...
 
Stopping power is very overrated. The best thing to do is to look at the hard facts which are that more people are killed with .22's than any other caliber. Most people can empty an entire clip of .22 ammo very accurately in a few seconds, very few people can do that with 9mm or larger, and unless you can, you are only lessening your chances or survival with a larger caliber.

In order to stop a human being, you need to hit the CNS or heart. 99% of people out there can hit those tiny target better with a .22, and a .22 is more than powerful enough to penetrate a body (youtube has a video where a .22 goes through 8 layers of denim and a frozen turkey at 300 yards!).

A larger caliber will be more deadly because the would will be larger, dirtier, and they will bleed out faster, but the goal of self defense is to stop the person and that can only be done with a CNS/heart shot (or the pain will cause them to stop, and they way the brain interprets pain means that a gunshot from a .22 will be perceived just as painful as a shot from a .45)
 
Stopping power is very overrated.
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I can certainly agree with that, but then I think you wandered off track a little in your reasoning. A .22LR to the heart is not going to give you a quick stop, simply because the hole will be so small that the bleeding will not be severe enough to stop an attacker quickly. A CNS hit might well be your best bet with a .22LR or .25 ACP. The larger calibers allow a shooter to target the chest in a more general way so they have a larger, less mobile target with a decent chance of stopping the assailant.

Both of these refer to physiologic stops. You mention psychological stops - the people who quit because they are hit or scared, even though they have the physical ability to continue fighting. Those are common but unreliable; I don't know of any way of predicting the thought processes in that situation, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that at least sometimes a larger caliber would cause more visible damage, more pain, more intimidation, and result in a quicker psychological stop.

Neither physiologic nor psychological stops are certain with any handgun caliber, but you increase your odds of survival with a caliber larger than a .22 and being prepared to recover from recoil and shoot multiple times. You are right that recovery for continued shooting is important, but a lot of people can handle more than a .22LR effectively in that regard.
 
I don't understand the school of thought that says the smaller and lighter the better. I am not a large person, but I can carry a full size 1911 with no problem, and often forget it's there.
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As others have said, try carrying a full-sized gun when you're a construction worker, or if you climb cell-phone towers, or other similar jobs (when you often don't trust your co-workers enough to leave your pistol in the truck because it's in the way and not practical). If you did that, then I suspect you would beg to differ. If you currently do one of these jobs and carry a full size 1911, then congrats on choosing to do something that I simply wouldn't. As the old saying goes, the .22 on your side is better than the .45 at home (or in your vehicle).

A .22LR to the heart is not going to give you a quick stop, simply because the hole will be so small that the bleeding will not be severe enough to stop an attacker quickly.
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I beg to differ sir. Look into the murder to SC Trooper Mark Coats. The videos that you can find on youtube do not show him after he was hit once, in the armpit, by the .22lr golden BB that the suspect fired. The videos stop at that point (but they do show him unloading his .357 revolver into blackburn, 5 hits COM, who lives and is now serving life in prison), so you don't get to see how long it takes him to die. I have seen the entire unedited clip. Within 5 seconds of being shot, Mark Coats is on his knees and screaming incoherently. Before 10 seconds, he is on his back and barely audible. It's actually a very horrifying thing to watch. A .22lr to the heart, entering from the armpit and bouncing off of the shoulder blade, ends the fight in short order. I still wouldn't advocate carrying a .22lr for SD... just dispelling some pretty false speculation about how long the fight can last. Yeah, Trooper Coats was mostly on his feet for a few seconds... but he was out of the fight and if you see the entire video you would agree.

I have seen guys on meth and pcp take magazines full of 9mil and 357 jhps and not slow down. If its not going to go through a big guy and take spine with it its just not for me.
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Really? Seen it? Guys (plural)? With your own eyes? Take rounds and not slow down? I've seen a guy hopped up on crack go down like a sack of rocks with one shot COM. Seen neck shots with both 5.56 (enemy combatant) and 7.62x39 (my best friend) drop someone and kill them nearly instantly. I've seen a kid take an AK round (7.62x39 again) placed perfectly between his side SAAPI plate and front SAAPI plate and live. The round actually went through his lungs, barely missed his spine, bounce off of the back SAAPI plate and embedded itself between two ribs next to the other lung. Taking both lungs out would've probably been good night, but thankfully it didn't and he recovered. I've seen 5.56 from a SAW remove most of someone's head. I've seen a lot of things that I wish I hadn't, in real life, personally, with my own eyes... and some things on video that a lot aren't privy to. What have I learned from that? Shot placement means way more than caliber. But I'm still a strong advocate of .380 and above for SD (I used to carry a .32... still would but our options these days give us more wallup in a small package).




To the OP... I hear what you're saying. If you can comfortably carry a full size then there is no reason to opt for the baby guns. With that being said, don't expect everyone to be in a position to carry full size guns. CC, and SD in general unless you carry a rifle with you everywhere you go, is a trade-off. I'm not going to try and convince someone who will only carry a .22 derringer that they should do otherwise, I'm usually just happy that they are a good guy carrying a gun.
 
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I beg to differ sir. . .A .22lr to the heart, entering from the armpit and bouncing off of the shoulder blade, ends the fight in short order.
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Perhaps I should have said that it is not as reliable a stop as a larger caliber, with which I think you would agree. It is not impossible to get a rapid stop with .22LR, which the tragic incident you related attests. Trooper Coats was, however, able to respond with effective fire even though his thoracic injury was about as bad one could ever expect from a .22LR round. Not to make light of it in any way, but I don't want to have to attempt a bank shot through an armpit, off the shoulder blade, and into the heart or great vessels in order to defend myself or my family.

My response was to a post that implied that a .22LR was the equal or better of larger rounds for defensive purposes. I respectfully disagree with that assertion. It may be useful for folks who for one reason or another have only that as an option, but better options are available for most people.
 
if you are shooting across a parking lot, or large expanse of a public place, like mall, you are likely to find yourself facing charges... better to scoot your family away from the shooter, then it is to try to engage someone from a long distance...
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I see this come up a lot... and I honestly don't buy that argument. If there is a public shooting like we have seen lately, and you are in a mall or parking lot with some nut case with a semi automatic rifle.... If you shoot at him from 50 yards and he is aiming at you... I highly highly doubt you would get convicted. Obviously the situation dictates the details, but if you are caught out in the open of anyone carrying a semi automatic rifle with in 100 yards... you can justify shooting back, you are not going to retreat or out dodge or out run a bullet, all you can do is hope he has no real training and cant hit you.

I am not saying just draw your gun and start blasting away, obviously most of us are trained and practiced to know a targets background and fore ground, you can't shoot through a screaming and running crowd. However even over penetration if you wounded or even killed someone.. you did not act on doing that intentionally... you did not go to the movies or store that day with your wife with the intent of killing people. It was collateral damages in the defense of your life. Show me one case where someone was prosecuted and convicted of such act, and I will say I am wrong, but I don't know of any personally.

At the end of the day... I will retreat if and when I can... but if it comes down to it.. I will defend my life at all costs.. and I would rather go to trial for it, than be another body bag.
 
Because of what I do ( state chairman of a minor political party) in the warm months I many times will carry a .380 or .38 snubby I can deep conceal. When I can I carry my S&W 1066/4043 or one of my Browning Highpowers but some times I just can't.
That said carrying small does not mean it's ineffective. I group just about as well at 10 yards with my Taurus TCP .380 as I do with the larger guns.
I stopped a big 100lb Alapaha bull dog last year cold with 2 rounds of 90 grain JHP +P Corebond out of the little TCP shooting one handed when it attacked my dog on my leash while I was walking him around the corner from my home. I have no doubt I could do the same to an attacker within 20 yards with the TCP.
While I prefer to carry the higher cap larger caliber full size pistols when I can I have no reservations about carrying a small pocket pistol that I shoot well with when I have to.
 
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I prefer a full size gun over the compacts as I have large hands. I also don't like to reload under stress so 18+1 works for me.

The above posts need to stay on topic. :rolleyes:;)
 
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