Rampaging Animal Part 2

Dogs. My current (and only) family stands at 33" and weighs in at just under 200 pounds. An English Mastiff. All of my past dogs were German Shepherds, but they're high energy dogs that need a lot of physical exercise and mental stimulation to be happy. And I'm not getting any younger, so I opted for a couch potato. I encounter a lot of dogs while on calls, but I worry more about the little guys biting than I do the big ones. The last thing I want to do is shoot a dog, but I've had to on several occasions. The one time that stands out were the two pit bulls that belonged to a well known crack dealer. He used them to protect his merchandise, and he beat them & encouraged aggression until not even he could approach them. One day they got out and went on a killing spree. No kids, thank God, but they literally tore apart five family pets before we caught up to them. We hit one from a cruiser with several rounds of 9mm Ranger, and it actually attacked the cruiser and was biting the tires before another shot ended it. The other dog we took out with a round of 00 buck. I felt very badly about having to do it, but it was necessary. I don't blame the dogs; I blame their low life piece of sh** owner. :mad: Sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do, dog fancier or not. :(
 
Now I am not shooting these dogs if their like a 100 yards away and closing, but if they get in my yard, and they appear they are about to attack (i.e. I'm in fear of life and or great bodily injury.)..them 3 dead dogs. Sorry but better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 as the saying goes. I'll worry about the legal repurcussions later.
 
Capt. C, I agree. More often than not a bad dog is the fault of a stupid or careless owner. A dog is molded into the nice, friendly, tail wagging chum that he is. Or he's molded into the nasty, snarling, teeth baring biter that causes problems for everybody. Too bad for the dogs, huh?
 
My father has a neighbor who used to have three dogs that'd do something like this... Actually had my gun out and pointed at one once when it got out under the fence and surprised me once when visiting. Stopped and backed of as soon as I noticed the movement out of the corner of my eye and swung around to face him, already drawing. Was still fifteen feet away - had he not reversed motion...
A quick phone call and neighbor recaptured and reconfined him. He had to get rid of all three of them a little later - mauled one of his kids... :barf:

As much as I detest it and try to get rid of it, there is not one ounce of fat on my body that doesn't overvalue every inch of every dog in the universe and I'll shoot to defend said fat everytime, even if the odds are three to one. (greater numbers just mean I feel threatened at a greater distance.)
 
Obviously a mutt driven crazed by some hypermacho jerk, or as a psychotic barrier for the local drug dealer is another matter.

However, it appears that few on this thread are aware of the new miracle tool...it's called a stick. Might consider thinking of lesser alternatives before hauling out the trusty hoglegs. Not every mutt, is some heretofore unknown spawn of Cerebus. And in general, dogs can usually be bluffed or whacked easily enough...and usually the incident ends at that point.

It would seem some of the places in which some of the posters on this thread, reside, must be very, very, noisy. How does anybody get any rest with the echoing sounds of seemingly constant gunfire, and yelping dogs?

Now can we start a thread about the dangers of free roaming cattle...
or maybe sandhill cranes, have you seen the beaks on those feathered flying rapiers....
 
as I said, I would also defend myself, and I would be very upset, infuriated, if my dog were to do this to someone. the problem is that 99% of people Ive met think my german shepherd wants to eat them alive when he is wagging his tail and begging for an ear scratch. and actually baring teeth, snarling, and hair up on top of back is a fear response. dogs show do this to people if they are cornered and afraid of the person. if a dog is charging at you he will look the same as a happy dog begging attention. cats are the only mammal with the ability to move their tails independently while running. dogs cant wag their tail while running, they can hold it straight out (or curled if a malamute, akita, etc) or between their legs. the only main difference you can tell between a angry dog and a happy dog running towards you is the happy dog will most likely be moving slower, possibly wiggling its body and head held low. head held striaght out (whole spine in a straight horizontal line) ears forward, eyes locked on yours is a predatory charge, ie a wolf charging towards a moose.
please dont take this the wrong way, I am not trying to convince anyone to ignore a dog running towards you. as I said, I would defend myself. unless it was rabid or attacking (or had before) a person or child I would not shoot it. I would kick, hit with a stick, etc. but yes it is better to shoot first and deal with the cinsequences. and I absolutely believe that no one should be allowed to own a dog and not have absolute control over it. name a situation for me and I garauntee one of two responses...either "yes, I'd have complete, total control over him in that situation", or "I dont know about THAT one, havnt trained in anything similar and therefore in that situation he would be on leash". so do I hate anyone or have anything against anyone who says they would shoot the dog? nope, not at all but I do have something against the owner and if they try to sue you over that, they should be thrown in jail for allowing the dog (truly dangerous/aggressive or not) to run loose.
the only reason I asked if anyone could tell the difference and detailed, somewhat, the physical and noticable differences between agression and "oh boy am I happy, please pet me" is so hopefully, atleast assuming the dog is charging from a distance and not from 10 feet away, you might have time to look and recognize if its a threat or not. do I expect everyone or anyone to see a dog 60-100 feet away charging for them and say "hmm, maybe I should leave my gun in the holster cause I cant tell for certain"? of course not. but hopefully it will help you, the owners, and the court system. doubtfull but as an animal lover, and a professional dog trainer (obedience, herding, tracking, agility, protection) I have to try. to me a dog running towards you is no different than a person running towards you. you have to think and evaluate wether it is a valid threat. just like with a person in a parking lot, could be in a big hurry to get to their car and run right past you. the dog could be after a rabbit you didnt see, or a ball you missed, or heard its owner calling from around the corner but has better hearing than any person so you didnt hear it. anyway, I'll shut up now.
 
I went on a walk tonight through a neighborhood that is filled with families, but has a lot of dangerous through traffic. I was walking my 4 mo old lab. Out of the corner of my eye I saw an enormous, probably 70 lb, pit bull. He was behind a short chain link. This was ridiculous to have a dog, that was showing his protective instinct by trying to scale, behind such a short fence. It was irresponsible by the owner and darn it, if that dog had gotten out, I would probably be on my way to the ER. The owner should be responsible. If you are going to own a dog that has the intrinsic desire to attack people, then one has to be accountable. Some people state that it is all in the way you train the dog. That being said, I have only know one lab that was a biter and every pit I have known I have had to tip toe around not to get eaten. :rolleyes:
 
I dont disagree about the owner, all of them, needing to be responsible. their should be atleast as strict laws for pet ownership as for firearms.
I hear that a lot about pit bulls. I swear I have met and trained a lot of them. for the last 6 months I have had a policy where I wont train pits, or canary dogs/presa canrios. not because they have a "intinsic" aggression towards people. that IS totally in the lack of training and socialization. I've never had a pit bull that showed any sort of threat towards me or anyone else. everyone of them Ive seen DOES ignore anyone and everyone, and I am sure they would ignore a shotgun blast to the face (lets assume it wouldnt kill them) in order to fight with a dog. to back that up the us government, hospitals, and insurance agencies all list statistics of dog bite over the last 10-20 years. rottweilers, pit bulls, dobermans and german shepherds are at the very bottom of the top 100 list. know whats at the top? #'s 1-5 are small terriers, poodles, and chihuahuas. number 6? very suprising but its a tie between labs and golden retreivers. knowing that I am still more cautious around my beloved german shepherds, and others than I am around labs and goldens, or even terriers.
 
and every pit I have known I have had to tip toe around not to get eaten.
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Well, either you live in a really bad community or you've just had really bad luck with Pitbulls. I'd say more than 80% of the Pitbulls I've seen/fostered/worked with would be a great family dog. I would let 50-60% of them go home to a family with small kids. The other 20% were simply trained wrong.

if a dog is charging at you he will look the same as a happy dog begging attention
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Umm, I think I would be able to tell the difference. But, I could see some trigger happy guy that knows nothing about dogs mistaking a friendly dog for one that is a threat.

And NO, that last line did not have anything to do with you personally, panzer426.

I'll shut up now.
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A client of mine was torn to pieces by a pitbull.
The above is a true story. So the question is: You are in your front yard or back yard - enjoying the day (or watering plants if you wish), and your neighbor's door pops open and 3 dogs come charging at you (in a threatening manner - no leashes). Assuming the backstop is clear (no civilians behind the dogs) and you are carrying your regular concealed carry weapon.

Gentlemen your thoughts?
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Nothing to think about. First shot into the clear backstop (ie lawn, I've seen it work very well, dogs turn 180° at light speed) if there is the time for it. If they don't beat it then, shoot the dogs.
 
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panzer, I don't doubt those statistics as to the number of bites, but I would expect that the most severe bites (and deaths) occur from pits and rotties, etc. The most bites are likely to occur from the most common breeds, after all. Can't remember ever hearing of somebody killed by a lab or golden, though it may have happened.

Anyway, we live way out in the country on 40 acres. We don't have many dog problems because the problem dogs just get shot in short order ;)

I don't automatically shoot dogs, but I don't tolerate dogs that are a threat to people or property.

We keep ours pretty close to home, but they do run loose on our land and on walks with us.
 
Has anyone ever known of a maddog puppy? :eek: Usually, mean and aggressive dogs are the product of human neglect or abuse.

Some breeds have developed a reputation for being naturally aggressive. Most German breeds, and others mentioned in this post. My first dog was a German Shepard, who I will never forget. One of the many memories was when I was 12. The day he put a neighbor kid, 4 years older, and 50+Lbs heavier up into the back of a pulp truck, as he threatened to kick the crap out of me. He kept him there for over an hour, until I called him off. :)

I'm sure everyone on this thread loves their dogs. But if I am confronted with three dogs running at me with intent in their eyes, I'm shooting first, and asking questions later.

On the other hand if panzer426's German Shepard runs up to me wagging his tail, I'd drop down on one knee, and greet him. :D I would hope we all would know the difference.
 
Bullrock, . . . I about fell out of my chair laughing when I saw your last post. Today, I went to a distant neighbor's house to check on some pups she said she had (half German Shepard, 1/4 black Lab, 1/4 golden Retriever).

She told me these puppies would be the friendliest pups on the planet.

Nobody told momma dog that she was supposed to show the friendly face for all prospective pup parents.

Remember where you wrote: "I would hope we all would know the difference."

:D Yeah, . . . I know the difference, . . . and for about 2 seconds in the living room there, . . . I had the distinct impression momma had me made for her new chew toy. :eek: Wasn't hard to read her intentions, . . . :(

Anyway, . . . y'all have a great day.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
I used to play rugby in college until I had to quit due to a soccer injury. One of the guys on the team had a very nice pitbull, and I never saw it show aggression to anyone. Then one day, he brought it to a game. As one of the other players walked by, the dog attacked him out of the blue. The owner got him under control pretty quickly, but not before the other guy was missing a large chunk of his calf. We superglued the wound to stop the bleeding so he could play, but once the game was over he had to go get quite a few stiches at the hospital. Most pitbulls I have been around have been much less aggressive than the smaller dogs I have been around, but they have a much larger capacity for damage when they do attack. I would not hesitate to shoot, seeing what that dog did in one bite.
 
panzer426,

Going out in public with a large unleashed dog is a bit like going out in public with a semi-auto that has the mag out and the slide locked back with a range flag hanging out of it and then pointing it at folks as you walk around.

You and anyone with gun experience will be able to tell that it's not dangerous, but that doesn't mean it's OK. It's still going to scare people, and even the people who know it's really not dangerous may still be uncomfortable with you pointing it at them or others.

Besides, do you know how to tell when people are lying (usually unintentionally) about their pets (or kids)?

They start their sentence with: "My pet/kid would never..."

Animals are very complex, it is not possible to predict their behavior with 100% accuracy, nor is it possible to have 100% control over them.
 
with enough patience, time and training it is actually possible to predict their reactions and have 100% control over them. when I take him anywhere without a leash he is always heeling unless we are in a dog park where he is allowed to run off leash. Ive tested him with trained and experienced dog people by having them fire starter pistols right next to us while he is heeling, sitting, laying down on and off leash. I have had them come up and pretend to be attacking me, even throwing me down on the ground and sitting on top of me. he will get defensive, barking, growling but I tell him to lay down and he does it without question or hesitation. I've trained dogs for 13 years. personal dogs trained in obedience, conformation shows, schutzhund, herding, I've trained my dogs and other peoples dogs in those and agility. I've trained dogs for SAR (sorry, SAR stands for search and rescue) groups. I've trained for the military as a civilian consultant, and for police agencies. I've trained everything from german shepherds to rottweilers to golden retrievers and bloodhounds, jack russel terriers, and chihuahuas. I charge anywhere from $50 a day to $500 a day depending on what the owner wants the dog trained for. if any or all of the owner, my assistant, my wife, and/or myself dont think the dog and handler are trained to the point where the dog is 100% obedient and trustworthy in and situation possible, then I start over (some of the advanced training sessions are 30+ days long) and the owner doesnt pay me a cent. in that case I also pay them for any travelling expenses nessecary in bringing the dog to me for the training. to date I have not had to do that for a single dog/handler. if I did have to I could lose up too $30,000 (15k for the first 30 days, could be another 15k for another 30 days) and would be a deserved loss. the hardest part in training a dog, to do anything, is training the owner/handler. and making them fully aware of the potential danger in training them and there dog for certain things. sadly (from a financial stand point) I have to turn down 75-80% of the people who want me to train their dogs for them because they say or do something to make me think they WANT their dog to be dangerous. I dont train dogs to be dangerous, I train the dogs to be obediant in any situation. I dont train dogs to bite people, I train them to know when it is acceptable, and to be 100% obedient if they do mistake a situation for being an acceptable one to bite. to further show how hard I work to weed out the people who dont need a dog, let alone a dog trained in protection...I could make a decent profit training at $100 a day. but if protection is being trained it costs $500 a day. besides the higher price if you are a potential customer there is a 30 day period where you have to talk to me everyday in email and on the phone where I ask a lot of questions and expect you to ask a lot of questions too. and then the first 15 days of training I dont even think about training protection, its obedience and other things if wanted, and feeling out the dogs personality. if you want higher levels of protection, like for competition in schutzhund, or for military law enforcement then it takes more than 30 days. if at any time I decide the dog doesnt have the nerves for it, doesnt have the right personailty, or that you dont have the right desires or personality, I end the training and contact other trainers to alert them about you.
so basically, yes if you know what you are doing and know how to train the dog it absolutely is possible to train and trust a dog 100% in any situation.
 
Hey Dwight,

Momma must have been the 1/2 German Shepard part. Perhaps she knew you were packing, and was trying to protect her pups. :rolleyes: NOT! Oh, that's OK, she won't hurt you...How many times have you heard that from dog owners just before beloved pet springs for your throat. :eek:

I'm glad you got away unharmed. :) Your distant neighbor should have known, and warned you that momma wasn't nice...Too many of us have our head in the sand regarding our pets. :(

Personally, I'm owned by a West Highland Terrier. :D
 
Today I thought I was gonna have to shoot a dog. Unfortunately, I was on my way home from work where I cant carry. I live in the "hood," and was almost home when this dog ran out in front of me, barking and growling. It kept in front of me, I could only go a couple miles of an hour. The people on the side of the road obviously didn't own it, as they were telling me to run it over. It was some form of pit bull mix, and was very menacing. If it had followed me all of the way home, and I had had my gun, it would be a very dead dog.
 
so basically, yes if you know what you are doing and know how to train the dog it absolutely is possible to train and trust a dog 100% in any situation
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Not "100% in any situation"--there is no possible way that can be true. Assuming everything else you say is true, it sounds like it would be accurate for you to say "nearly 100% of the time in the vast majority of situations." "100% in any situation" is a very hard specification to live up to in any field of endeavor and nothing/no one has managed it yet to my knowledge.

However, letting that stand for the moment, how many people in the U.S. are there who you would say qualify under your definition of "if you know what you are doing and know how to train the dog"?
 
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