Quickdraw McSelf-Shooter

If I understand the mechanics of this type of holster correctly (not saying I do), it looks like you can press a secondary trigger guard release with the same finger you shoot with in order to complete the draw. In my inexperienced armchair opinion, this is an inherent accident waiting to happen--regardless of how good or experienced you are.
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No Sir:

I will describe again how the Serpa works. Anytime one draws his pistol/revolver the trigger finger is normally extended, pointing parallel with the barrel. When the pistol/revolver is drawn from the holster, the finger naturally falls along the frame above the trigger guard. It's still straight.

When drawing from the Serpa, the finger slides over a "bump" which contained the release allowing the pistol/revolver to be removed from the holster.

After the finger slides over this release, it then falls flat against the side of the holster, remaining straight. As the pistol/revolver comes out of the holster the finger falls (straight) along the side of the pistol/revolver above the trigger guard along the frame, (just under the cylinder of a revolver).

The pistol/revolver is then presented, or pointed toward the target, and as the target comes in view over the sights and the mind recognizes this is the target then the finger goes to the trigger.

To get the trigger finger into the trigger guard you have to "crook" it, meaning you have to bend the finger and stick it into the trigger guard and on the trigger.

The Serpa is no different then any other holster (that covers the trigger guard). Such holsters will not allow you to put your finger in the trigger guard until the pistol/revolver is removed.

And, again, you finger is going to naturally be straight as you grip the pistol/revolver and remain so until the pistol/revolver clears the holster

I have never seen a holster that requires you to put your finger in the trigger guard to allow you to remove the pistol/revolver from the holster.

If the gun goes off while drawing, its the shooters fault, not the holster.

People blame the equipment simply because they aren't man enough to admit their own mistakes.
 
It has always been so with SAC. It is my opinion that the blind adherence to procedure in that command is directly correlated to the nukes and the need for very strict, no deviation, behavior. The SAC mindset permeates all levels and duties. I found that most folks were happy to escape once they found out they could think and make decisions elsewhere.

As to the Serpa, I use one quite a bit, as do many if not most of my coworkers. The way to avoid mishap is to be aware and to train yourself to lay your finger straight and flat along the holster just as kraigwy states.
 
OK--for my information--not disagreeing with anyone--it looks to me like there is a release of some sort on the face of the holster covering the trigger guard area. I assume this requires pressure of some sort to release, and this is sometimes, maybe all the time, with the same shooting finger.

Speaking strictly for myself, I think the probability is high FOR ME in the heat of a stress draw I might continue whatever pressure/movement it takes to actuate that release thereby putting myself at a greater chance of AD/ND. This may seem like a stupid spaz action to some--but to me it seems like an inherent risk, at least for me. I do not have confidence in my own skills that I would be able to reliably prevent an AD/ND in a high-stress draw given the finger/hand mechanics as I understand them. I readily admit I have zero familiarity with this type of holster.
 
Beating-a-dead-horse.gif
 
This video demonstrates that it is a poor (perhaps unsafe unless you train exclusively which this one type of system) design to have a safety release which requires the trigger finger to contract to release the pistol from the holster. This led to the guy in the video to continue (or again) to contract his trigger finger at an inappropriate time, which meant he pressed the trigger at the wrong time, which meant he discharged the pistol at the wrong time.

He was "pushing" himself to see how fast he could go. This reduces the margin of error. His mind was set to expect one set of conditions (erroneously) when a different set actually existed. He states that he forgot which holster he was using. He used the manipulations for the 511 thumb retention system when he was actually using the Serpa holster which had a index finger retention system.

At the least this is a cautionary tail about changing equipment.
 
The pistol/revolver is then presented, or pointed toward the target, and as the target comes in view over the sights and the mind recognizes this is the target then the finger goes to the trigger.

To get the trigger finger into the trigger guard you have to "crook" it, meaning you have to bend the finger and stick it into the trigger guard and on the trigger.
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I have several Serpa holsters. I have them for SIG, Glock, and 1911. With the Sig and Glock, they work well for me. I can put my finger straight along the holster, my finger indexes exactly where it is supposed to be, and I can push the button with my finger straight along the frame.

The 1911- I don't know what exactly it is about the shape of the holster. I have to crook my finger and push the button with my fingertip. I think if my fingers were straighter it would work very well. But I have to crook my finger and I decided not to use the holster, because in a hurry I might end up doing just what that guy in the video did.

It's not a problem with the holster. My hand just doesn't fit it.

I have never seen a holster that requires you to put your finger in the trigger guard to allow you to remove the pistol/revolver from the holster.
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I've seen them, but not in a long time. Scary. Some police departments used to use them in the 70's or 80's. There was a steel button inside the trigger guard. I'll see if I can find a picture. A retired cop from NJ I used to shoot with told me they used to keep an empty cartridge case in the bottom of the holster to keep the gun from locking into the retention device.
 
I think every shooter should see this video.

It reminds all of us that being very familiar with your handgun and equipment does'nt guarantee your safety.

This guy shot himself in the leg with a 45acp round and still has a leg.

He should buy a lottery ticket because he's damn lucky to still have a right leg ( as well as still being alive).

I think he deserves thanks for publishing the video and saying it was all his fault this happened.
 
I'm a relative newcomer to pistol shooting.
I wanted to get into IPSC last year so I took the 2 day black badge course which is mandatory in Canada to be allowed to draw from a holster at the range.
At the time I only had a 1911 so I purchased a CR Speed race holster which only covers the trigger and has no retention device of any kind.

The holster is made to play games where speed is of the essence.
I then bought an HK P30-L to compete in production division and I bought a Serpa level II for it. In the 6 months I've had this holster practicing for IPSC I've never stuck my finger inside the trigger guard.

Where I do run into problems is when I switch from the 1911 to the HK or vice versa is that I keep messing up my mag releases since the HK uses the trigger finger to release the mag.
Using multiple guns with different controls is azure way to mess up when speed is of the essence.

Tex did the same thing in that video.
He went from using the 511 thumb drive holster with a Glock to using the Serpa with a 1911.
The 1911 has the safety where the 511 thumb drive holster has the retention release mechanism. That combined with a hasty draw from the Serpa caused the ND.

One good way for shooters to increase their proficiency is to try competing in the shooting sports such as IDPA or IPSC where you are under constant scrutiny for such things as having a finger inside the trigger guard before your sights are on the target.

Let's remember blaming a holster for an ND is the same as blaming a gun for killing someone.
 
It is my understanding with the Serpa if you draw fast and press the latch on the side it is easy to keep pressing under speed as you draw and the finger then gets inside the trigger guard and fires the weapon.

It's now slow drawing but doing it fast, so fast your mind does to tell the finger to stop pressing as you pull the gun out of the holster.

Deaf
 
It is my understanding with the Serpa if you draw fast and press the latch on the side it is easy to keep pressing under speed as you draw and the finger then gets inside the trigger guard and fires the weapon.
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It doesn't work that way, slow or fast. There is a spot where you finger hits the release, then you slide the gun out of the holster, as you do that your finger has to leave the release slides along the holster like any other holster.

If you stick your finger in the trigger guard, its not the holsters fault, is because you aren't paying attention.

I can't see how you can get your finger into the trigger guard unless you crook it. The Serpa doesn't make you do that.

I use them in competition that requires qucik draws, never had that problem.

If I was smart enough to make a video, I'd make one post it, showing that its the shooter, not the holster that puts the finger in the trigger guard.
 
I can't see how you can get your finger into the trigger guard unless you crook it. The Serpa doesn't make you do that.
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The Serpa for the 1911 makes me do it. Let me try to explain it a little better.

My index finger isn't real straight. It's bent toward my middle finger enough that the rest of my finger is resting on the holster. So I have to bend my finger, like a hook, and push the button with my fingertip only. So my problem with this holster (and it's MY problem not the holster's) is that my finger is bent, pushing pressure toward frame when the gun comes out. I'm just a slip away from getting the finger into the trigger guard.

Again, not an issue with the Serpas I have for my Glocks or my Sig. Those holsters are a little flatter and the button is a little wider. I index my finger along the slide/frame the way I always do and the holster releases, just like it's supposed to.
 
Never saw the original thread on this so I thank Golden State'er. I see this original was heavily discussed back in July, however some months the computer isn't used as much as other times.
!st of all Tex is to be commended for his candidacy of publishing his mishap.
I am going to go out on a limb and call this an accident! He was doing this at the proper place and with the intention of demonstrating a "Defensive Retention" technique.
I watched the slow motion part of the video 20 or more times and he did NOT crook his finger to the extent most here have claimed. His finger was in line and straight and only when the pistol released in an unexpected manner did the finger go to the trigger much like a bump fire when it can discharge a double action revolver if the shooter is not gripping properly and is trying to get control again.
Tex's mistake of disengaging the safety because of the brain fart mix-up with the thumb release vs the index caused the pistol to remain locked into the holster and the release looks to me to have been out of control, with the mind concentrating on low retention, backing away from BG all happening at the same time, NO this was an Accident! and can happen to any of us.
Think of it this way, if that pistol would have released normally and the shot would have gone off low and hit the target frame leg 1 inch above ground, would that have been a Negligent Discharge?
This could happen to any one of us.
And it isn't a "DEAD HORSE" ;)
 
Saw this before, and concluded that muscles (as in "muscle memory") don't make decisons very well- ingrained reactions that are appropriate with one system (gun/holster/draw method) can put holes where you don't want them when the system changes.

I have noted that when I change from a DA revolver to a SA auto, I go to yanking on the trigger.... and have stopped spending time and ammo $$$ working on the DA revolvers...... limited resources have reqired me to make decisions, and my SA shooting has gotten better.....
 
only when the pistol released in an unexpected manner did the finger go to the trigger
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If it's "unexpected" its poor training and a violation of the 4 basic rules.

NO this was an Accident!
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Accident vs Negligent Discharge??? If you were to separate the two, the only "accident discharge" I've seen was a loaded gun in a fire, where the heat caused a cook off. In the hands of the shooter it's a Negligent Discharge.

"Defensive Retention"
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I've taught defensive retention and take aways to LE officers. And still do. (I understand take aways training is coming back, don't know why it was stopped).

In my classes its impossible to have a negligent or accidental discharge be cause I don't use real guns, I use the "blue guns", or training weapons which you can get for just about every gun available. You ain't gonna shoot yourself in the butt with a "blue gun".

GBRO, reading your post shows, even though you try to portray it otherwise, the accident or negligent discharge occurred from lack of training and following the 4 basic rules of firearm safety.

I'm gonna try to make a video (after it warms up and I can get my wife outside) that shows the trigger finger placement on the Serpa holster as you draw the pistol/revolver. If I can figure it out, I'll post the video.

I suggest anyone who is concerned or interested go to a gun shop, Most have a display of Serpas with blue guns or something similar on the counter for us to play with. Try it. you'll see the Serpa doesn't force your finger in the trigger guard, you have to do that your self.

I don't have a Serpa for my 1911s, but I do know how the safety works. You don't disengage the safety on a 1911 until the point you're ready to shoot and I dis-engage mine as I'm lining up on the target, about the same instant my finger goes into the trigger guard.
 
My uncle, a Lt on a local police force at the time, would ride me about gun safety. keep that barrel up, is the safety on, is it loaded... till my eyes would cross. Then he was showing off his quick draw with his peacemaker 45longcolt and shot himself right above his ankle and thru the bottom of his foot. I brought him a gun safety pamphlet in the hosp and he burst out laffing when i came in saying he knew if anyone visited it would be me. famous last words

Practice what you preach and there is no substitute for gun safety
and if you must practice quickdraws practice with a unloaded weapon.:cool:
 
Another reason why I'm for traditional double action (DA/SA) or DAO for carry. Sorry but if the other guy gets off a shot at me because the 8# trigger pull took too long, then it just wasnt my day.

Edit
2:58 - after the shot went off... my training kicked in.. :D
 
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