Question regarding 2nd Amendment

I've seen this argument before presented by gun control advocates and it still boggles my mind how simple grammar tends to escape even the most educated Senators.

Don't kid yourself. It doesn't escape them. They deliberately misconstrue it, cynically and disingenuously, in the hope that on some off chance, they will actually fool people into taking their lie seriously.

EVERYONE knows what the Second Amendment really means.
Then it breaks down to the group that likes what it means, and honors it, and the group that doesn't like what it means, and seeks to twist it into unrecognizability and meaninglessness.

Don't ever let yourself believe that they don't know exactly what it means, though. That's playing into their bulls#!t trap.


-azurefly
 
how else can one make it any more clear than being completely literal?


I believe that it is all too easy to take something like the Second Amendment out of context and turn the letter of the Amendment against the Spirit of the Amendment.

I think one way to understand the Second Amendment better, rather than just by reading it over and over, is to study the requests for the Amendment. Also I think it's a good idea to compare and contrast the federal Second Amendment with the similar amendments in the State Declarations of Rights.
 
What Hugh said. This amendment, like any other, bust be understood in the context of the founders' intent rather than modern use of the language.
Militia=armed citizenry, not citizen-soldiers.
Regulated=Practiced
 
Federalist 29, Hamilton:

were I to deliver my sentiments to a member of the federal legislature from this State on the subject of a militia establishment, I should hold to him, in substance, the following discourse:

"The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

"But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."

He wanted to march us out once or twice a year to check and make sure that we had militia-appropriate weapons in ready condition.
 
+1 publius42
To understand the context the Constitution is written in, the Federalist papers spells it out.
 
Oh, don't misread me, I think the ACLU is dead wrong, and between the context provided by the words of the framers themselves and my own clearheaded interpretation, it's pretty clear to me the meaning of the Amendment is that it's pretty hard to have a well regulated militia if the militia's would be members don't have arms or the knowledge and will to use them. They were trying to offer justification for (and a warning about the legal and tyrannical ramifications of taking this right) what's a basic and inalienable right--the right to defend yourself. Unfortunately some duped judges and crafty lawyers have twisted that intent around.
 
To understand the context the Constitution is written in, the Federalist papers spells it out.
Well, if you wan't to pick nits, you need to read not only the Federalist papers, but the Anti-Federalist papers as well. They were actually a dialog, questions posed and answered by the 2 major political movements of the day -- those who were essentially libertarian leaning states rights supporters (Anti-Federalists), and those who were in favor of a stronger central government (Federalists). Oddly enough, the Federalists Papers are usually used by those seeking greater Liberties, but that makes sense -- as the Federalist papers were written to the Anti-Federalists answering their questions pertaining to Federal overreach in an attempt to ease the fears of their more personal liberty minded, states' rights oriented opposition.
 
Publius

Thank you

Informative!

Cool... :cool: :)

gb in ga

the Federalist papers were written to the Anti-Federalists answering their questions pertaining to Federal overreach

Interestingly... they were both in favor of individual rights like the 2nd Amendment...

The gap was not so very great in those days... :(
 
The gap was not so very great in those days...
Yep, back then the feeling was, "we don't want any level of government putting its grubby hands on [most of] our rights."

Now it's, "which level of government do we want putting its grubby hands on our rights?" It's multiple choice, and "none of the above" is not an option.
 
2nd. ammenment

Without reading all of the post, I read it the other night and it sure isnt real plain to me either, I wish they would have made some points a lot more clearer. It seems like it can kinda be interperated two ways, one way for us gun lovers and the other way for the gun haters. Actually I never read it personally untill a couple weeks ago and when I first read it it almost looked like they meant if you were in a ''militia'' you could keep firearms, but then it goes on to say all the stuff about (i cant recall it verbatim) how the right of the people will not be infringed upon. But I wish it were more clear just so the anti-gun people would shut-up about the whole thing.
 
The gap was not so very great in those days.
By today's standards, true. And neither side back then resembled much of anything we see today. Well, maybe Libertarians without the Whacko element and without the anti-religion bent. I still maintain that the whole lot of them are turning over in their graves at what we are being inflicted with nowadays.

Odd thing was, those 2 sides back then really didn't get along at all. They didn't like each other. Nowdays, they are largely considered to be just 2 slightly different flavors of "Classical Liberals", no relation to todays Leftist "Liberals" at all.
 
Clarification

Dear Markey:
You wrote:
"I read it the other night and it sure isnt real plain to me either"

Please don't misunderstand my question. There is no doubt in my mind that the entire sentence is written intending to set forth that we have an inalienable right as individuals "to keep and bear arms" and that the right of the people "shall not be infringed". I am not confused on that. Not in the least.

I am confused as to how someone could surmise that the founders would recognize a right, and state that it cannot be infringed upon, and within the same sentence grant government the right to infringe upon it.

They wrote a "well regulated militia" is necessary to a free state, and then afterward within the same sentence, further state that the right of the people (not the militia) to keep and bear arms, cannot be infringed upon.

It seems so very, very simple when you just read it without trying to put a political bent to it. Because if it meant only militia members could bear arms, then law enforcement officers could not do so unless they were members of a militia. And since they are a civil law enforcement arm that is not possible.

So my question is not what it means. My confusion is, how can someone explain that a right that cannot be infringed upon, is subject to being "well regulated"?
 
Pointer, they saw things pretty much the same as far as militia issues went, but there were large gaps on other issues. The Federalists were the big government guys of the day. It's funny to me that I named myself publius and started using their words to argue for smaller government.

My particular favorite these days is Federalist 45.

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. The more adequate, indeed, the federal powers may be rendered to the national defense, the less frequent will be those scenes of danger which might favor their ascendancy over the governments of the particular States. If the new Constitution be examined with accuracy and candor, it will be found that the change which it proposes consists much less in the addition of NEW POWERS to the Union, than in the invigoration of its ORIGINAL POWERS. The regulation of commerce, it is true, is a new power; but that seems to be an addition which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained.

Havin' a good old time with that one over here. ;)
 
My confusion is, how can someone explain that a right that cannot be infringed upon, is subject to being "well regulated"?
Nobody can.

The confusion results from people who can't read english, first, and who can't figure out what "regulate" means, second. The militia is supposed to be regulated to prepare them for the possibility of war. Guns are not supposed to be regulated, nor is the RKBA supposed to be infringed.

It would make no sense to say that there is a RKBA, but the militia (supposed to be all able-bodied adult citizens) is regulated so that it may not possess certain guns. "Hi. If you're able to use a gun, you're forbidden from owning guns a, b, and c." That leads to an absurdity: the amendment talks about a regulated militia, but not a regulated citizenry. If the militia is regulated (improperly) and forbidden from owning certain guns, that means the rest of the citizens -- children, women (under the current definition of militia in the U.S. code, only women in the national guard or armed forces are part of the militia), and the elderly and infirm -- can own whatever they want... machineguns, RPGs, tanks, mortars. Since federal gun laws almost always deal with ownership and transfer rather than borrowing, that means women and the young and the elderly could own all sorts of exotic weaponry, and we in the militia would be left borrowing weapons.

So, even if we didn't have any idea what "regulate" meant in the 18th century, we can safely rule out the meaning, "restrict what guns the militia can own."

Regulation could mean all sorts of other things, like having certain clothes, or having at least one of a certain rifle to be carried if the militia is ever called upon, or having some minimum level of training. But those things cannot be made a condition of owning firearms. They are things that, if the government wants to "regulate" the militia (there is no mandate that says they must do so; the 2nd amendment merely says it's a good idea if we want to keep our country free), the government must provide us with those things.
 
Um. I hate to point out the obvious here, and maybe everyone else has already seen it, but ...

"Well-regulated" refers to the militia, not to the guns.

In other words, congress can pass all the laws it wants in order to organize the militia and make it work.

But they can't pass a single one regulating firearms or restricting firearms ownership; "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Seems pretty straightforward, really.

pax
 
Part 1 of 2

Many people will state that we cannot know the intentions of the framers. Not just people like ourselves, but people within the Legal Profession itself: Scholars, Judges and Attorneys. This is only true if one disregards the writings of many of the founders and framers of our Governing Documents.

Actually, there are some things we can infer. We can know the intentions of several of the founders, based upon their writings before and after the ratification of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book, 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." Tench Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." James Madison, The Federalist, No. 46, 1788.

"[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually.". . . I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason, Virginia's U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788.

[b"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."[/b] Samuel Adams, Massachusetts' U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788.

"Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." Tench Coxe, Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789.

"Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." Rep. Elbridge Gerry (Co-Author of the 1st Amendment) of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789.

I could go on, for quite some time, with various of the founders quotes and how they saw the meaning the Militia or the Right to keep and bear arms. Those that dismiss the plain meaning of the Second Amendment, will also dismiss these writings. I will however give two legal theories of the meaning of the second. First by Justice Story in his Commentaries and then by Thomas Cooley:

Justice Story said:
"The next amendment is: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." {[In Story's Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (1840), the following two sentences are also added:] One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offence to keep arms, and by substituting a regular army in the stead of a resort to the militia. The friends of a free government cannot be too watchful, to overcome the dangerous tendency of the public mind to sacrifice, for the sake of mere private convenience, this powerful check upon the designs of ambitious men.}

"The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights." Justice Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (1833)

A mere 40 or so years after the establishment of this nation, Justice Story gives us a profound look at the legal and idealogical thinking of that time.

Thomas M. Cooley said:
"The Constitution. -- By the Second Amendment to the Constitution it is declared that, "a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"The amendment, like most other provisions in the Constitution, has a history. It was adopted with some modification and enlargement from the English Bill of Rights of 1688, where it stood as a protest against arbitrary action of the overturned dynasty in disarming the people, and as a pledge of the new rulers that this tyrannical action should cease. The right declared was meant to be a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers, and as a necessary and efficient means of regaining rights when temporarily overturned by usurpation.

"The Right is General. -- It may be supposed from the phraseology of this provision that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent. The militia, as has been elsewhere explained, consists of those persons who, under the law, are liable to the performance of military duty, and are officered and enrolled for service when called upon. But the law may make provision for the enrolment of all who are fit to perform military duty, or of a small number only, or it may wholly omit to make any provision at all; and if the right were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of this guaranty might be defeated altogether by the action or neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check. The meaning of the provision undoubtedly is, that the people, from whom the militia must be taken, shall have the right to keep and bear arms, and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose. But this enables the government to have a well regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than the mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in doing so the laws of public order.

"Standing Army. -- A further purpose of this amendment is, to preclude any necessity or reasonable excuse for keeping up a standing army. A standing army is condemned by the traditions and sentiments of the people, as being as dangerous to the liberties of the people as the general preparation of the people for the defence of their institutions with arms is preservative of them.

"What Arms may be kept. -- The arms intended by the Constitution are such as are suitable for the general defence of the community against invasion or oppression, and the secret carrying of those suited merely to deadly individual encounters may be prohibited." Thomas M. Cooley, General Principles of Constitutional Law (1880)

A hundred years after the founding, the Right contained in the second amendment still stood as clear as when it was written.

Today however, we can look back and see that one of Cooley's warnings have come true. The militia, by Congressional neglect (or design), has all but disappeared from our country.
 
Part 2 of 2

We can further infer the meaning by looking at what Madison himself wrote. The original Right to keep and bear arms, as proposed by Madison reads: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person. June 8, 1789.

On July 28th, after Madison again raised the issue of the Bill of Rights, this version was returned from committee: "A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms."

The Second Amendment itself was debated and modified during sessions of the House on August 17th and August 20th. These debates revolved primarily around the "religiously scrupulous" clause. Some representatives feared that the government could declare people to be religiously scrupulous, and thereby disarm them against their will. These concerns were addressed by modifying the final clause, and on August 24th the House sent the following version to the U.S. Senate:

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

The next day, August 25th, the Senate received the amendment from the house and entered it into the Senate Journal. When the amendment was transcribed, additional commas were inserted by the Senate scribe:

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."

On September 4th, the Senate voted to significantly change the language of the Second Amendment by removing the definition of militia, and striking the conscientious objector clause:

"A well regulated militia, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The Senate returned to this amendment for a final time on September 9th, slightly modifying the language, and then voting to return the Bill of Rights to the House. The final version passed by the Senate was:

"A well regulated militia being the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The house voted on September 21st to accept the changes made by the Senate, however the amendment as finally entered into the House journal contained the additional words "necessary to":

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

It is this version that was transmitted to the states for ratification. The process of adoption by ratifications by the requisite number of states was completed on December 15, 1791.

So yes, I believe we can infer as to what the founders thought the meaning of what we call the Second Amendment to be.

There is yet another argument to be made for the Standard Model (Individual Right) as opposed to the State's Right Model (Collective Right). That is the argument by analogy. Consider the following direct analogue:

"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

The above analogue precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

To argue for the Collective Model, using the same argument for the right to keep and bear arms, we then have no choice but to conclude that only well-educated voters would have the right to keep and read books. Further, it would mean that the right could be restricted to keeping and reading only those books which would lead to a well-educated electorate.

That type of thinking however, leads to a circular argument: Only the well-educated electorate have the right to keep and read books, but only those books that would lead to a well-educated electorate.

This is much the same as the current argument that only the State Militias have the right to keep and bear arms, but since the National Guard is now taking the place of the State Militias, therefore, only the Military have this "right."

Yet these are absurd assumptions, given what we know of the founders thoughts on free speech and arms keeping.

I think it safe to conclude that while everyone may not be well-educated, enough people will become well-educated to preserve the security of the State.

So it is with the real Second Amendment. Given what we know historically, the State's Right Model is unacceptable in totality.

While no one is compelled to own arms, enough people do own them to perserve the security of the State. The evidence of that is in the number of people that do own arms and are trained in their use. It is estimated that between 70 to 80 million people own arms, out of a population of 300 million... Nearly one third of the total population. The percentage gets much larger when you look at only the adult population.

We most likely still do not agree. But to say we cannot know the intentions of the founders when they wrote the Second Amendment is to say we haven't studied the history of the founding.

The question that remains is; What is the relevance of this Right in todays modern world?

I could give examples of the trend in government usurpation of our rights. Piece by piece. [Supreme Court] Case by [Supreme Court] case. So as not to bore everyone, let me just offer two recent cases. In the light of Raich which gives the federal government Carte Blanche power to regulate every facet of our daily lives, and Kelo, by which the government acknowledges that they may take your property at whim, I would answer that the relevance is as great today as it was at the time of the founding.
 
The Militia is not the National Guard - We are The Militia

"The Militia" refers to We The People, to wit:

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people; to disarm the people is the most best and most effective way to enslave them." -George Mason

The National Guard is not the militia, as politicians and other citizen disarmers love to claim. The Bill of Rights, which refers to the militia, was ratified in 1791. The National Guard was not in exsistance then - it was organized 130 years later.

The Founders could not have been referring to an organization of which they had no knowledge when they used the term, "The Militia."

Next time some antigun schmuck says "The NG is the Militia" hit them with the above. They will have no comeback.
 
Dear Tyme, Pax, and Antipitas, et al:

Thank you very much for taking the time to give your input and research. Each of you provided well researched, well thought out arguments to help answer my question.

I intend to print out and share your statements with my 15 year old daughter. She gets involved in this debate with the anti-hunting, anti-gun teaching staff at her high school on a fairly regular basis. And the more information she has with which to counter the "collective" right issue, (which apparantly is a widely held opinion among the teachers at her school) the better she can support her arguments and provide some form of balance to their anti opinions.

Our 15 year olds will be deciding our future at the ballot box in three short years,and the more factual information she has to share with her peers to try and counter the "revisionist" teachings, the better.
(Even her history textbook propounds the "collective" argument)

Again, thanks for your input and time. You have provided much, much more information than I could have done on my own.
 
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