Question. LEOs at the door with warrant

[vox rationis]

You think? I'd think they would rather take a small spell to think about this unforeseen wrinkle. Use their noggin a tad here instead of letting loose with the gung ho. Because after all, after that door comes flying open, our theoretical home owner afraid of a violent intrusion by criminals onto his property might not be holding a "commemorative Glock" in his hands like one poster so condescendingly wrote a few posts ago, but instead, perhaps our poor homeowner will be holding a Black Rifle, or a Kalashnikov variant, of one type or another. Funneling in through a door in the face of that type of resistance isn't exactly an enviable proposition for the assault element, and I wouldn't think that a suicide mission was something that they'd be particularly interested in. So unless "securing that evidence" is worth dying for, I would hope that real Police in that situation would think a bit more with their brains and less with their tactical gear.

 

[Perldog007]

I would hope that real Police in that situation would think a bit more with their brains and less with their tactical gear.

Me too, but still must insist that I have personally witnessed a warrant execution go the other way. Not that it should, or always would. But it can and it has. You won't convince me it can't happen again.

Also knew a man who complied to statement of police presence by four men in civillian clothes. The men turned out to be armed home invaders. Yelling "Police" and brandishing weapons fooled the occupants long enough to gain entry and control. I say knew because he died during that event.

EDIT - SonofVladTepes - check this link out http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59616 . Believe it or not, Some folks will do boneheaded things whether or not we swear them in and pay them and give them cars, radios, and guns.

Thank G-d that none of the children in that house were holding anything that those boneheads may have thought was a weapon!

 

[buzz_knox]

I am not sure about everywhere but when I was in the LE line of work search warrants required uniformed officers be present.

The two times cops came to serve warrants at my place, they were in plainclothes. They had the wrong address both times.

 

[kgpcr]

I know LEO's that have done search warrants for years and never gotten a wrong house. Warrants they did not find anything yes but not the wrong house. If they want in they be comin in!

 

[vox rationis]

check this link out http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=59616 .

Absolutely stunning story! I am a very proud naturalized American Citizen from an ex Communist Eastern European country. I find this type of thing very worrying indeed. My tolerance for government goons abusing their power and brutalizing innocent people is nil. I guess that the only thing I could say on a practical note is that it might be a good time to invest in breech proof doors, perimeter lighting, dogs, and a very secure safe room to guard against an intrusion from any party, criminals or mis-guided law enforcement agencies

 

[BreacherUp!]

Because after all, after that door comes flying open, our theoretical home owner afraid of a violent intrusion by criminals onto his property might not be holding a "commemorative Glock" in his hands like one poster so condescendingly wrote a few posts ago, but instead, perhaps our poor homeowner will be holding a Black Rifle, or a Kalashnikov variant, of one type or another.

Vlad, I'm confused. You just stated that after your long discussion through the door with the police, whom you've already observed (per your earlier post), that you would still brandish a weapon when the police enter. Which they will, after a "reasonable time". That reasonable time standard would be met in a court of law through your tiring discussion through the door. So, YOU would be escalating the situation, and most likely, forcing the officers to use deadly force.
Again, your call, but IMO, not a wise one.

 

[JollyRoger]

Not to be a wet blanket, but I think this "thugs dressed up as cops" thing is getting overplayed. I actually do remember one such robbery, but as with most "home invasion" robberies, it was a a case of robbers hitting drug dealers. Before I get flamed, I know there are home invasions where the victims are upstanding citizens. I investigated one where the robbers took a bank manager hostage, held her all night and went with her to rob the bank in the morning. The point is, however, even garden variety home invasion robberies do not involve random strikes. Any thug dressing up like a cop is going to a lot of trouble to hit a specific target.

That being said, if you say anything that sounds like a threat to a police officer executing a warrant, the best thing you can hope for is an overnight in jail. Most of the ballistic entry type warrants are for drug dealers to preserve evidence. Robbers, murderers, etc. can expect heavy tactics, but usually involve a slower, less risky clearing technique. For a low-threat warrant you might get a chance to do some talking, but the site of a warrant is still NOT the place to assert your rights. A whole system is designed for that, including internal affairs departments, suppression of evidence in criminal cases, a civil Bivens suit for damages, etc. I am constantly amazed that people think they can best the authorities on the street if they cop enough attitude. You have to use the proper venue: once you go playing cowboy, you're going to lose. Every time.

 

[SteelCore]

Many of U guys wholly miss the point. Gov't should not be in the practice of kicking down doors.

The founders of this nation would be appalled at the current state of affairs. Name one thing gov't cannot do... things have surely changed since those who "had it all" risked it all for folks who, by and large don't seem to regard their philosophy very highly...

Absolutely correct. There is no doubt that Jefferson, Madison, et al., would be thoroughly disgusted with what Americans put up with. This has become a nation of obedient, docile, cowardly sheep who never fail to line up at the shearing-shed.

Among other things, people have gotten far too accustomed to militarized/tacticool police having their way with the American people. Some even think of these guys as heroes. I think a lot of that has to the tendency of weak people to worship what they perceive as strength (though the only real "strength" here is that of superior numbers, body armor, surprise, and in many cases, weaponry). Most people like to cheer on the "winning team," regardless of principle. Most people have also been conditioned and brainwashed into thinking that "the law" is infallible, rather than just demands made upon some men by others.

Many of these raids are just absurd, with lives being put in danger and a level of force being used that would be unnecessary when dealing even with a known serial killer, let alone some two-bit pot dealer. But there's no shortage of people who'll do it because it makes them feel like macho bad-asses. Who cares about the Constitution when you're getting paid to play ninja with cool weapons?

If the police knock on my door, I'm looking out the window to see if marked cars are there before opening up. Then I'll talk to them civilly, like one human being to others.

If anyone kicks in my door -- especially if they're wearing masks -- then a great deal of armor-piercing rifle bullets are going to be headed in their direction. If I get shot then that's fine, but I won't be the only one going down. I'm only going to live once. Whether it's for a long time or a short time, it won't be as a slave whose life and property are subject to the whims of either criminals or the Almighty Law that most Americans consider to be an infallible God.

 

[BreacherUp!]

Many of these raids are just absurd, with lives being put in danger and a level of force being used that would be unnecessary when dealing even with a known serial killer, let alone some two-bit pot dealer.

Seriously? Unnecessary for a serial killer. Good Grief

Whether it's for a long time or a short time, it won't be as a slave whose life and property are subject to the whims of either criminals or the Almighty Law that most Americans consider to be an infallible God.

You're not. You're person and/or premises is subject to a WARRANT signed by a judge. The very basis of Constitutional law. As stated earler, there is a judicial system in place for use-of-force after the fact. A premeditated shoot out with the law is a grand idea!

 

[vox rationis]

Vlad, I'm confused. You just stated that after your long discussion through the door with the police, whom you've already observed (per your earlier post), that you would still brandish a weapon when the police enter. Which they will, after a "reasonable time". That reasonable time standard would be met in a court of law through your tiring discussion through the door. So, YOU would be escalating the situation, and most likely, forcing the officers to use deadly force.
Again, your call, but IMO, not a wise one.

Well the scenario I was working with is this: a theoretical homeowner hears a knock and a voice that says: "OPEN UP ITS THE POLICE". The homeowner looks out the window/peephole/etc and sees a half dozen strong collection of men either wearing windbreakers with "Police" written on them, or men wearing tactical looking gear and masks (and probably openly armed). What the homeowner DOES NOT see however is any more objective indication of these people being real Police. No squad cars with lights flashing, no SWAT van, no uniformed police. So the issue then becomes, how does the homeowner respond? As seen in past such scenarios, although I suppose somewhat rare, but I'd argue, not rare enough, these could be home invaders, or real cops getting the wrong house. This is why I proposed that an idea would be to say something akin to: "I think you've got the wrong house, I am afraid that you are home invaders, I am armed and will resist unless I speak to your supervisor, I'm calling 911". By the way this would take a whole 5 seconds to say, not a prolonged conversation. Now as this is happening our theoretical homeowner could have gotten his own favorite self defense weapon, a tacticool Noveske N4 Light Carabine with EOtech. So to be clear, at this point, the homeowner STILL DOES NOT know if these people are cops or not, and is deeply concerned that he's being faced with a home invasion; if the next event is aggressive armed people breaking his door down, well then I could see how the homeowner, fearing for his and his family's life, opens fire in self defense.

 

[SteelCore]

Seriously? Unnecessary for a serial killer. Good Grief

I'd hate to see the serial killer who requires 200 cops, armored personnel carriers, and helicopters to arrest him.

Did you see the law enforcement response to those two elderly tax evaders in New Hampshire? "Good grief" is right.

You're not. You're person and/or premises is subject to a WARRANT signed by a judge. The very basis of Constitutional law. As stated earler, there is a judicial system in place for use-of-force after the fact. A premeditated shoot out with the law is a grand idea!

If my door is kicked in in the middle of the night by armed, masked men, I am not going to take the chance of being victimized with impunity. "Citizen safety" is every bit as important as "officer safety" -- if not more so, since I don't get paid to take risks. (Not that police work is even that dangerous. IIRC, roofing is about twice as dangerous a profession.) But even so, safety isn't my main reason for being armed. It's more about self-respect and a refusal to be tread upon.

 

[vox rationis]

Not to be a wet blanket, but I think this "thugs dressed up as cops" thing is getting overplayed.

you are probably right, but this is a discussion forum and we's discussin'

 

[SteelCore]

They wouldn't even need to necessarily dress up if it's dark enough in the house at night when they break in. All they'd have to do is yell, "Police! Search Warrant!" That might be enough for many to give in and cower.

 

[BreacherUp!]

Appologies, Vlad. My quoted comments were from SteelCore.
Steel, you're back peddling already.
Frankly, doesn't the public at large expect the full resources of the law to be utilized to capture a known serial killer, whether you'd "hate" to see it or not?

(Not that police work is even that dangerous. IIRC, roofing is about twice as dangerous a profession.)

Wow, spoken by someone with obvious experience.

But even so, safety isn't my main reason for being armed. It's more about self-respect and a refusal to be tread upon.

Cowboy Up! You sound just like every gang member I come across

 

[SteelCore]

Steel, you're back peddling already.

How? I'm simply making the point that I'm not going to take a chance at being victimized just because The Law allows its enforcers to kick in doors, even if it's by virtue of a rubber-stamped warrant. I can't take a chance that the invaders aren't really cops. And if they're kicking in my door as part of a post-Katrina-style gun confiscation, then they're getting shot whether they're cops or not.

Frankly, doesn't the public at large expect the full resources of the law to be utilized to capture a known serial killer, whether you'd "hate" to see it or not?

Obviously I'd want to see a serial killer get busted quickly. But when does the response become unnecessarily disproportionate? When a nuke is dropped on the house where he's known to be hiding? When the army is called out?

From the Butchers of Waco to the daily raids on stupid but harmless hippies who sell pot or coke to each other (because drug laws make it very profitable), law enforcement in America has become far too militarized and often tends to escalate conflicts rather than make arrests using the minimum force possible, as is required in a system where people are supposed to be judged by a court rather than cops.

Wow, spoken by someone with obvious experience.

I have experience in neither roofing nor law enforcement, but that has little to do with the simple fact that a roofer is about twice as likely to get killed on the job as a cop. Feel free to research this; you don't have to take my word for it.

Cowboy Up! You sound just like every gang member I come across

It sure would be nice if more Americans valued their freedom as much as gang members valued their turf or their drug profits.

 

[Perldog007]

Frankly, doesn't the public at large expect the full resources of the law to be utilized to capture a known serial killer, whether you'd "hate" to see it or not?

Yup, but as posted I have personally witnessed an off the hook raid for an apartment with some potheads in it. Everybody near the whole building got messed with. I never realized a warrant for an apartment occupied by four young black males applied to elderly black people and white people who happened to be within 30 yards of the same building....

Also heard two cops at the gun store discussing a "raid" on a trailer where the startled p*** ant heard his door break on a no knock and picked up a pellet pistol (dumb p*** ant at that).

Luckily for said p*** ant said officers marksmanship was on par with their street smarts, he was hit in the femur and shoulder at range of less than 10'. He will survive, less than a quarter ounce of coke and a weapon (the pellet pistol) from this daring raid.

Their discussion matched the write up in the local paper.

And check out this story of bravery and courage .....
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=59616

And yes, I have kicked in a door or two. Once to recover a skip in West Philly at OdarkThirty on 7OCT87. Once working in public housing in D.C. two pre teen girls were in a vacant apartment used by the local crew as a gang clubhouse. Both times I was solo.

The skip was previously given the chance to do it the easy way. The kids parents were very pleased that their daughters were removed from that apartment before the gang members found them there.

I can be proud of my actions on the occasions when I came through the door by taking it off the hinges suddenly. Would not be able to say the same if involved in any of the other incidents mentioned above, or what happened to Spookboy.

Nobody is faulting officials for exercising good care and using appropriate force. By your screen name you seem to be in the trade. You have to know that not every raid by every organization is warranted. If you are in the trade and do not believe that exuberance occurs we can't help you.

 

[vox rationis]

Steel Core I totally sympathize with your sentiments about not wanting to be victimized by heavy handed government police tactics.

All I'll say is that I think we'd all agree that there is an obvious role for SWAT type police squads, but also that LE agencies ought to really take such SWAT actions, and the planning associated therewith extremely seriously, and be religious about rock solid intelligence, and be extremely judicious when they unleash such paramilitary units upon the public.

 

[JollyRoger]

From the Butchers of Waco to the daily raids on stupid but harmless hippies who sell pot or coke to each other

Dude, come on. The Butchers of Waco were the nutballs who opened up on the ATF when they were serving a federal search warrant reviewed and approved by a Federal District Judge. Having obtained a number of those warrants, I can attest to the fact that there is no rubber-stamp process here. If said nutballs wanted to contest the probable cause, they could have hired a good lawyer and had their day in court rather than murdering dedicated federal agents. 'nuff said.

If you don't like the drug laws, write your Congressman. LEO's enforce the laws on the books, they don't make them.

I can be proud of my actions on the occasions when I came through the door by taking it off the hinges suddenly.

Perldog007, you can be proud of doing something stupid if you want to. I made a couple solo arrests of genuine bad guys when circumstances required it and got away with it, but I also made couple 2-on-1 arrests where we almost didn't get away with it. Most LEO's get the toughguy stuff out of their systems after they wind up in a bad situation and realize how easy it would be to lose and get hurt or killed. After that, we just want to get the job done and go home with no new holes. The best way to do that is to go in with superiority of manpower and superiority of force: lots of LEO's, lots of firepower. While these much-maligned "paramilitary" techniques may offend some posters here, they usually impress upon the bad guys that any resistance is futile. That way the bad guy gets to jail alive, and LEO's don't have to go through the nightmare that comes with a shooting incident. Better for everybody.

 

[SteelCore]

Dude, come on. The Butchers of Waco were the nutballs who opened up on the ATF when they were serving a federal search warrant reviewed and approved by a Federal District Judge. Having obtained a number of those warrants, I can attest to the fact that there is no rubber-stamp process here. If said nutballs wanted to contest the probable cause, they could have hired a good lawyer and had their day in court rather than murdering dedicated federal agents. 'nuff said.

The ATF has no right to exist, and every single one of those "dedicated federal agents" is/was an armed enemy of the US Constitution and freedom itself. Thus, they were in the wrong no matter what happened. And I believe the ATF fired first.

As to the need for the raid and the obvious misconduct and lies during and after it (including blatant perjury by ATF officials), you might want to watch Waco: The Rules of Engagement. It contains plenty of real-time footage that makes it quite unambiguous who the real sickos were in that incident.

If you don't like the drug laws, write your Congressman.

The average citizen has absolutely no power to change the laws on the books, and my Congressman (along with most others) doesn't give a crap about the Constitution or anything the average citizen has to say.

Besides, why should anyone have to beg another man (or woman) for the natural right to do as he pleases with his own body and health? Drug laws wrongly deny that right. By the logic on which they're based, people could be thrown in prison for drinking too much, eating too much, or not exercising. (I do believe it should remain illegal to provide drugs to minors, though, or to operate a car while under the influence and so forth.)

I don't use or sell drugs, but there are other unconstitutional and tyrannical laws on the books that I reserve the right to break as I see fit. Since I have no desire to harm innocent people or their property, my conscience is clear.

LEO's enforce the laws on the books, they don't make them.

"Just following orders" is no more an excuse in the US than it was at Nuremberg. For the most part, I don't begrudge cops enforcing the laws as long as they never violate citizens' rights themselves. But some laws are so obviously unconstitutional, and are so obviously there JUST to protect political power, that their enforcement is a crime against everything this nation stands for.

 

[kgpcr]

some pretty wacked out people here!! As for David Koresh when you are getting hand grenades via UPS there is a problem. I am glad they raided his compound. Who needs hand grenades. but oh yes they were planted i forgot. there is a conspiracy behind every tree no wait thats paranoia