Question: How are Glock 17's carried?

There are some good monolithic bullets out there--I personally like Barnse's xpb's--which I believe makes a 380 acp more of a reasonable BUG. There are a fair share of IMO gimmick monolithic rounds out there too (RIP e.g.) but none of these I would expect to maintain a uniform profile and path through glass and tissue (at 9mm velocities anyway)--but I guess anything is possible. I don't know--but I assume LE is not permitted use of monolithic or specifically armor-piercing type ammo due to liability??
 
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For regular uniform & detectives, no.

In 1976 I carried six KTWs (ancient technology now) on my duty belt for extreme scenarios, but those days are long gone.
Denis
 
The last entry on the evidence log indicates (several hours after crime scene cleared) "1 live 9mm round, head stamped..." The officers were all carrying the same make cartridges although different calibers. This "live round" is of a different brand. (I refrain from mentioning actual brands.) The live round is troubling to say the least. And so far I find no mention of any testing that may or may not have been done on this live round. Needless to say this puts another gun on-scene. Photos not yet released but I assume there'd be a pic of this live round.

I cannot seem to find where the make of the rounds in the perp's gun is listed. But, according to the lab, his gun was fully loaded with 9mm at 18 +1, max capacity. No casings or live rounds noted as having been retrieved from perp's car. They did extensive testing on perp's gun, including DNA on mag and rounds. Would they not do this to the live round? If not, why not?
 
If the perp was in fact a shooter it's conceivable that any kind of live round could be found (maybe gangstah buddies rode with him too)--my vehicles are a bit "untidy" at times and I find live rounds all the time when cleaning them--sometimes even for calibers I don't shoot. "Now how did that get there?"
 
Yes. Along those lines I have come back from range practice - walked to my car, got in, drove home, walked up to the house - and still have heard a the clinking of a shell casing drop from me as it hit the floor in my bedroom. Where did that come from?

A few swabs are also notable here as I pore over evidence slips. The swabs were submitted to serology lab. Blood samples were taken from "droplets" noted on the street just below the driver's side door and along the driver's side exterior running board. From this I infer the perp opened his car door at or soon after he'd been shot.
 
Yes. Along those lines I have come back from range practice - walked to my car, got in, drove home, walked up to the house - and still have heard a the clinking of a shell casing drop from me as it hit the floor in my bedroom. Where did that come from?

A few swabs are also notable here as I pore over evidence slips. The swabs were submitted to serology lab. Blood samples were taken from "droplets" noted on the street just below the driver's side door and along the driver's side exterior running board. From this I infer the perp opened his car door at or soon after he'd been shot.
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And the doubt is whether or not that shot came from your buddy? Spit er out man!
 
LOL!!!!! Well, the doubt has always been whether or not he'd fired one or two rounds. Now, with the unexplained 9mm live round found at the scene (albeit several hours later) of a make not officially carried by the officers, along with trace blood evidence on the exterior of the vehicle, coupled with the fact that we now learn my buddy is NOT the only one on-scene with a 9mm, well...

I am now waiting for pics.
 
Without knowing all of the facts, but just from what I read so far. The perpetrator was a bad guy who got shot by one police officer, if the shooting was justified I don't see what everything else matters. One shot two shots three shots, what the heck does it really matter dead is dead. If he was justified in taking that first shot certainly one or two more shots would be justifiable to stop the threat. Now in the civilian world I would go as far to say if you're justified to take one shot you're justified to unload the whole damn magazine. So what if a live round was found on scene how would that change the justification of the shooting?
 
The round is a wild card that may or may not be involved in the shooting.

Where was it found?
At or near the spot where Jo fired from?

Who found it?

If a different brand from what anybody was carrying, may not be involved at all.

Stranger things have happened.
See my earlier post about a fired .45 ACP case being found near a shooting after the event.

While coincidence can be stretched too far, coincidences do never-the-less occur.

Did Joe ever explain the round-counts in his pistol & mags?
Did you ask if he mixed different brands in his pistol?

I still question why another officer would use an unauthorized backup pistol to fire one unauthorized ammunition round.
That makes no sense whatever.

I can understand the presence of an unauthorized backup (sometimes an individual makes certain decisions based more on survivability issues than policy issues), but why double down on aftermath repercussions by using unauthorized ammunition?

The fact that the found round is a different brand from any authorized ammunition carried, along with the distance-in-time discovery, tends to discount its connection to the occurrence in my mind.

Do any reports or debriefings mention the suspect opening the car door?
Blood droplets as you describe could just as easily have been deposited when the body was removed from the vehicle.

Unlikely he opened the door after being shot twice.

And, you didn't answer the question about why you brought up a poly-tipped bullet.
Was Joe carrying them?
Denis
 
The live round found has that polymer filling. All the officers had the same brand of HP ammo. That why I was asking if you'd ever heard of that polymer material disappearing or should we find it somewhere? Does it ever fragment?
 
As to the "dead is dead" remark that's what my whole dilemma has been all along. What's the motivation to lie - if one is lying - when there's no need. I've been a police detective for the majority of my adult life and liars have their reasons for doing so. But when there's no need to lie, maybe there's no lie at all. And Joe is angry. He's not scared. In fact, he's down right challenging almost daring people (me) to prove him a liar.

This is purely subjective and maybe you guys who are former cops will know this, but Joe is angry and if he's lying it just doesn't seem to serve a purpose. Denis, despite your warning, I did try to get him to change his story; just go with the flow since you're already cleared on the shooting. Nope. That's passing my test of sorts. But the reason? The only motivation here to stick to this one shot only theory is that since Joe alone is being sued in civil rights court for excessive force and wrongful death he simply does not think it fair that he stand alone. I just cannot think of anything else at this point. Again, benefit of the doubt being that he's not a liar.
 
Ok now this is all starting to come togeather this is not about the justification of the shooting, this all as to do with if Joe was the only one that can be sued for civil damages because he was the only officer supposedly that took the shot or shots, so if you can prove that another officer also fired a round then that other officer will also have to take some of the civil lawsuit heat. Got It!
 
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Unfortunately there's a helluva lot that's not fair about the job.

I can't blame Joe for being angry, that's built-in.

At this point I'd hold off and wait to see how the IA process goes.

Specific findings can be addressed, specific charges or accusations can be defended, as they're presented.
Denis

To add: If I were Joe, I would not be wasting time or money in the meantime on buying car doors & shooting car windows.
I fully understand it's hard to just sit with all this hanging over his head, and the very strong urge to DO something.

Just wait till you have a better picture of what really needs to be done.
 
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armedleo The last entry on the evidence log indicates (several hours after crime scene cleared) "1 live 9mm round, head stamped..." The officers were all carrying the same make cartridges although different calibers. This "live round" is of a different brand. (I refrain from mentioning actual brands.) The live round is troubling to say the least. And so far I find no mention of any testing that may or may not have been done on this live round. Needless to say this puts another gun on-scene.
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No, it doesn't.......... it just means that there was an unfired 9mm round recovered.
 
Well, yes, strictly speaking. Point well taken.

But I think the totality of circumstances including number of GSWs, officers carrying back up guns that are 9mm, and Joe claiming - no, insisting - he fired once, I think the finding of an odd ball live 9mm round likely goes to a gun. I take Joe at his word (no choice right now and no evidence to the contrary) that he himself does not carry a back up gun in accordance with the agency's prohibition. He's a former marine sgt. and does play by the rules. He's not an angel, but he's a very honest and sincere person. (I know that means nothing in a court of law or to the I A cops.)

No one I know, especially coppers, carry just bullets without a gun. I'm fairly certain bad guys don't. Its not like, Oh, gee, a bullet just fell out of my pocket. This is a shooting scene. This part of Joe's beat, while it borders a sort of run down part of the city I worked in, is not known for shootouts or gunplay.

Based upon what I've gotten from you guys I just am curios to find out what, if any, tests were done on this live round? Was it recently ejected? Was it pristine as if someone just plucked one from a fresh box of ammo and dropped it there? Is there DNA? Fingerprint?
 
You didn't mention who found it or how it was found.

Considering how it was probably handled, by one or more hands along the way, I would not expect much DNA help.

You didn't say how close to Joe's position it was found, and/or how close to anybody else's position.

Should be possible to place officers AND that cartridge at least approximately in the scene diagram.

We've gone over what you can possibly find on the round, in terms of marks.

If you're trying to prove there was a second shooter on that grassy knoll, that round in & of itself is not going to do that.

It can't prove anything beyond the fact that it was there, and POSSIBLY that it may have been chambered in something, somewhere.

Even IF there were usable DNA traces, those would have to be compared to DNA from all officers present.

IF the lab got a match, the scope of the IA investigation would have to be broadened.

If the lab did not get a match, anybody can claim anything about the round & its significance (or its lack of significance).

Trying to tie it into the size of the hole in the window glass would be problematic, and without a proper foundation laid in court, difficult to introduce.

The circumstances of its discovery could also be a factor in relevance.
As could trying to argue that the presence of the round proves the presence of another here-to-fore unknown pistol.

Curious, yes.
Conclusive, no.
Denis
 
Joe's own approximations are that he was 10 -15 feet from the front quarter panel but almost perpendicular to the driver's side door closer to the (front) door hinge.

The description of the found live 9mm round's location upon discovery as per the crime scene tech's report who collected it just says 0000 block of "Elm" Street. That's why I am waiting to see crime scene photos. An anonymous call came in to 911. (It looks like the call came in from a city extension, but that's no certain since the calls are on a rotary line and if one line is busy the call switches to an open city line. The city line when switched then comes up as the if the original call number. I have made a public records request for all 911 calls.) Tech did put an evidence marker down next to the live round and made a notation of that.
 
Inside the scene?

Anyplace close to any officer?

Half a block away?
Mile away?

Anonymous phonecall?
Denis
 
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