Question for Ron Paul supporters

Quote:
My copy of the Constitution says that the President can only establish these offices with the advice and consent of the Senate, and the funding of said offices is only by the consent of the House of Representatives, who shall not establish or fund any office not in support of their limited powers.

Looks like Ron Paul may know about the Constitution than you do.
Ron Paul doesn't know more than the United States Supreme Court which, for decades, has held that Congress may delegate power to executive agencies:

Quote:
Despite some dicta to the contrary, it appears that there is no power Congress cannot delegate. ''[A] constitutional power implies a power of delegation of authority under it sufficient to effect its purposes.'' 97 Denying that it had ever suggested that the taxing power was nondelegable, the Court has placed that congressional authority on the same plane of permissible delegation. 98 Nor is there a problem with the fact that in exercising a delegated power the President or another officer may effectively suspend or rescind a law passed by Congress. A rule or regulation properly promulgated under authority received from Congress is law and under the supremacy clause of the Constitution can preempt state law, 99 and likewise it can supersede a federal statute. Early cases sustained giving the President upon the finding of certain facts to revive or suspend a law, 100 and the President's power to raise or lower tariff rates equipped him to alter statutory law. 101 Similarly, in Opp Cotton Mills v. Administrator, 102 Congress' decision to delegate to the Wage and Hour Administrator of the Labor Department the authority, after hearings and findings by an industry committee appointed by him, to establish a minimum wage in particular industries greater than the statutory minimum but no higher than a prescribed figure was sustained. Congress has not often expressly addressed the issue of repeals or supersessions, but in authorizing the Supreme Court to promulgate rules of civil and criminal proce dure and of evidence it directed that such rules supersede previously enacted statutes with which they conflicted. 103


Recent concerns in the scholarly literature with respect to the scope of the delegation doctrine, 104 have been reflected within the judicial writings of some of the Justices. 105 Nonetheless, the Court's most recent decisions evidence no doubt of the constitutional propriety of very broad delegations, 106 and the practice will doubtlessly remain settled.
That's from a Findlaw article about the constitution. Perhaps Ron Paul ought to learn something about, oh, say the last 70 years or so of agency law.

These departments exist because congress has approved them, funded them, and delegated power to them. They are constitutional. Except to Ron Paul supporters, who make wild, unsupported claims that are belied by decades of Supreme Court precedent.

If Ron Paul wants to be the commander in chief, he'd better start explaining how he's going to protect the country after he eliminates the CIA and the FBI. Or perhaps information about terrorism, and the investigation and enforcement of federal laws that prohibit (for example) the passing of fake US currency, are simply presidential duties that don't interest Ron Paul.
Then your copy is wrong. From article 2 section 2...

Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about establishing these departments with the advise and consent of anybody.

Quote:
I can't find any authorization in the Constitution for the president to create any "office" he wishes to create out of whole cloth.
It doesn't say anything explicitly about creating various executive departments either, however if the president has the power to request opinions from the heads of executive departments, then it is obvious that having executive departments is constitutional and creating them is as well.

The framers were smart guys, but they also didn't feel the need to spell every single teeny tiny thing out, especially when the implication is pretty clear.
There are NO implied powers granted to the federal government by the states to be found in the Constitution, Supreme Court grants of power notwithstanding.

That's why we're supporting Congressman Paul, to rein in as much of this self granted power as he possibly can in the 8 years he will have.
 
So when Ron Paul eliminates the CIA and the FBI, how does he plan on gathering foreign and domestic intelligence, and how does he intend to enforce federal law?
 
Maybe he'll just eliminate the part of the CIA that worked to overthrow the duly-elected government of Iran and install the sock-puppet Shah in its place, who then converted himself into an absolute monarch.
 
There are NO implied powers granted to the federal government by the states to be found in the Constitution, Supreme Court grants of power notwithstanding.

That's why we're supporting Congressman Paul, to rein in as much of this self granted power as he possibly can in the 8 years he will have.

Give it up Pat. You're so far off the mark. Creating executive agencies has NOTHING to do with the states. Furthermore its not an implied power. The constitution expressly mentions executive departments. You may not like it, but the constitution allows it.

I'm still curious about your copy of the constitution. Care to cite me the section where it says that the president can only create a department with the advise and consent of the senate?

This is the problem with lots of Paul supporters. They take a good idea (limited government) and run with it to the extreme. Not every part of government is unnecessary or unconstitutional. Part of following the constitution is respecting the parts that grant authority to the government.
To not do so is no different than the government expanding beyond its limits.
 
I'd say "arguably constitutional" and not "perfectly acceptable."

Suppose you're President, and Congress passes a law saying all private guns must be rounded up. They override your veto, which I assume would be forthcoming. Is it perfectly acceptable for you to create an agency or use an existing one to execute such a law? Is it your duty to do so?


Well, to quote a figure in our history, "they made their law now let them enforce it." As president, I don't have a duty to create an executive agency. If I used a current agency to enforce the law in question, that would be a violation of the constitution NOT because of who was enforcing the law, but WHAT law was being enforced.

As far as creating an agency to enforce the law, again there isn't anything in the constitution prohibiting me from doing so. However using this agency for its intended purpose would be unconstitutional. Thats why I said it would be pointless.


While the Congress is the branch stepping outside the Constitution, doesn't any of that taint spill over onto the executive if he enforces an unconstitutional law?

Gotta love me some attenuated taint baby:D Sorry, old law school joke. My honest answer is no. While again I grant you that the investigative powers of most of these agencies (not all) would dimnish if we had a reasonable construction of the commerce clause, that doesn't have anything to do with their existence. The federal government does have the authority to make law and agencies such as the ATF and the FBI and DEA certianly have a place to enforce those laws. Whether they have gone beyond their scope is a different matter than whether they are appropriate at all.



Where did the executive get the authority to create the Department of Education? From Congress. OK, but where did they get it? The answer must be "from the Constitution." And that leads me to ask, which part? (Try to answer without reference to the commerce clause, since it is wholly irrelevant.) What part of Article 1, Section 8 gives them that power?

You've got it backwards. According to the constitution, the executive has the authority to create its departments. Article 2 says nothing about congress or its approval.

As far as congress's involvement there isn't one. While on some tangential level, education does have an impact on commerce, its not sufficient enough to implicate the commerce clause. So while the DOE is fine as an entity, congress can't do anything with it.

Of course, this really isn't relevant to our discussion since the agencies involved here, FBI, DEA, CIA, ATF clearly all enforce laws that even you would concede as constitutional.
 
So when Ron Paul eliminates the CIA and the FBI, how does he plan on gathering foreign and domestic intelligence, and how does he intend to enforce federal law?

Fremmer...I just wanted to make sure the RP supporters read your post again...seems they forgot to address it.

This is seriously my ONLY hold-up on voting for him...IF you get rid of these agencies...what is your solution?
 
You've got it backwards. According to the constitution, the executive has the authority to create its departments.

We're kind of having a chicken or egg discussion here, aren't we? I know which one has come first in every case I can think of: agencies are created to enforce laws. The laws predate the agency, and are the reason for its existence. Is there some example where that is NOT the case, where an agency appeared without laws to enforce, and without a legislative reason for its existence? If not, I'm wondering how an agency can be constitutional when the reason it exists is not?

So while the DOE is fine as an entity, congress can't do anything with it.

This doesn't strike you as a bit silly? Has any such thing ever happened?
 
We're kind of having a chicken or egg discussion here, aren't we? I know which one has come first in every case I can think of: agencies are created to enforce laws. The laws predate the agency, and are the reason for its existence. Is there some example where that is NOT the case, where an agency appeared without laws to enforce, and without a legislative reason for its existence? If not, I'm wondering how an agency can be constitutional when the reason it exists is not?

I don't know. But thats not the point of this discussion. The point of this discussion is that Paul, Pat, and others have espoused the idea that the FBI and the CIA are unconstitutional simply by virtue of their existence.

Thats definately not true. You and I can walk off on our (admitedly interesting) tangent, but that really has nothing to do with the original post or the issue at hand.

The fbi and cia clearly have a constitutional purpose. Arguing about whether that purpose has been exceeded is a valid but different argument and has no bearing here.
 
Fremmer said:
So when Ron Paul eliminates the CIA and the FBI, how does he plan on gathering foreign and domestic intelligence, and how does he intend to enforce federal law?


BA said:
Fremmer...I just wanted to make sure the RP supporters read your post again...seems they forgot to address it.

Fair enough, since no one wants to talk about the Dept of Education or the EPA, we'll talk about those, and throw in the DEA for Stage 2.

My answer is that while there might be reorganization/reduction in federal agencies in a Paul administration, I don't believe Ron Paul or most of his supporters (certainly the ones I know) want to eliminate the essential functions of those agencies. We need spooks running around the world doing all kinds of dirty tricks to our enemies. Ron Paul and others have criticized the CIA for a number of things, and rightly so, but I think we all understand that governments need to keep secrets and learn the secrets of other governments. I don't believe Ron Paul can simply abolish the CIA on his first day in office. I think he might rein in some of their activities, and that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, IMO.

I feel pretty much the same way about federal law enforcement agencies. Although I fail to see the interstate commerce in lots of things where the Supreme Court and Congress seem to find it, I do recognize the authority of the Congress to make laws under Article 1, Section 8, and the fact that the executive is supposed to enforce them, and he can't do it all by his little self. I don't believe Ron Paul can or would get rid of lots of the laws or the agencies which enforce them. Political realities will intervene. I think there are lots of laws which Ron Paul and I might find unconstitutional, but which have such broad support that Ron Paul and the libertarian fringe of his supporters could not touch them.

Pretending that Ron Paul is going to tear down the entire government overnight and then using that as a reason to not vote for him is not realistic. Realistically, I'm hoping Paul can pull off a nearly impossible upset and win election, then somehow manage to slow the growth rate in government back down to the level we saw under the Clinton administration. In my wildest dreams, he might manage to slow it to the rate of inflation.
 
The fbi and cia clearly have a constitutional purpose.
No, they do not. Again, you've managed to grant power to the executive branch for which no grant of power exists. Mere mention of "officers" or "offices" is not a grant of authority to make them exist by presidential order.

Yet, that's how at least the FBI came to exist. Further, since there's no grant of police power to congress, they have no power to legislate federal police into existence nor to fund them.

With no congressional power, there's no executive power existing either.

The CIA has no reason to exist either. Intelligence gathering would be Constitutionally handled by the DIA.

"Dirty tricks" are immoral and unethical and unnecessary. Needless to say, they're inevitably counter-productive.
 
No, they do not. Again, you've managed to grant power to the executive branch for which no grant of power exists. Mere mention of "officers" or "offices" is not a grant of authority to make them exist by presidential order.

Yet, that's how at least the FBI came to exist. Further, since there's no grant of police power to congress, they have no power to legislate federal police into existence nor to fund them.

:rolleyes:

Well since you didn't bother to answer my question about where "your" constitution requires congressional approval for creation of departments, I guess we'll move along.

Right now I'm more curious about Pat's interpretation of the constitution. Congress doesn't have the power to create executive departments. At least article 1 section 8 doesn't say anything about it. Article 2 clearly mentions executive departments.

So since congress doesn't have the power to create executive departments, and its clear that executive departments are constitutional, who gets to make them Pat? SCOTUS?


With no congressional power, there's no executive power existing either.

The CIA has no reason to exist either. Intelligence gathering would be Constitutionally handled by the DIA.

"Dirty tricks" are immoral and unethical and unnecessary. Needless to say, they're inevitably counter-productive.

Not that I agree with your first statement, but national defense is something that the constitution expressly grants to the feds. Hence the CIA is constitutional. You may not like it, you may think it has no reason to exist, but that has nothing to do with constitutionality.

Likewise with the FBI. There are many federal laws that the FBI enforces which are completely constitutional. The feds have the constitutional authority to enforce their laws. Thats why I mentioned US customs. If the framers didn't have a problem with federal law enforcement in 1789, you look really stupid telling us there is a problem with it in 2007.
 
IF you get rid of these agencies...what is your solution?

I probably could have shortened my answer by simply saying that I look at Ron Paul's positions as negotiating positions, and I keep in mind that we will be negotiating with Ted Kennedy. We'll wind up at some position in between.

Somewhere between RP and TK is better than somewhere between Mitt Romney and TK, IMHO.
 
Wow...if nothing else, this debate is encouraging people to read the Constitution, and that's a good thing.
The Supreme Court is very problematic....the constitution was supposed to be straightforward, so when I see 5-4 decisions, I know something is wrong. Maybe if politicians treated the constitution with respect, rather than an obstacle to get around so they can do what they want...remember what Nixon said (to Robert Frost): "Normal people don't want to be President".
 
Fremmer...I just wanted to make sure the RP supporters read your post again...seems they forgot to address it.

This is seriously my ONLY hold-up on voting for him...IF you get rid of these agencies...what is your solution?

I'll answer since everyone else is ignoring it.

If I'm not mistaken I believe RP's solution is that intelligence gathering is a function of the military and the Pentagon. His problem with the agencies as they stand is that they are all their own little bureacracies that don't work together, they have inflated budgets, and they don't seem to be accountable to anyone. Under the military there would be more accountability to Congress.
 
Here's a recycled Jefferson Quote from the Declaration of Independence:

"He has erected a multitude of new offices and sent hither swarms of officers to harrass us and eat out their substance"

(That's from memory so some words may not be exact).

What happened to the US being a neutral country like we were (mostly) before 1900?
 
If I'm not mistaken I believe RP's solution is that intelligence gathering is a function of the military and the Pentagon. His problem with the agencies as they stand is that they are all their own little bureacracies that don't work together, they have inflated budgets, and they don't seem to be accountable to anyone. Under the military there would be more accountability to Congress.

The military doens't have the training, resources, or the leway to do what the CIA and the NSA do. Do you really want uniformed officers carrying out intelligence operations?

Ignoring the huge vulnerability we would have in transitioning to such a program, having the military take over intelligence would be a disaster for a variety of reasons.
 
The military doens't have the training, resources, or the leway to do what the CIA and the NSA do. Do you really want uniformed officers carrying out intelligence operations?

Ignoring the huge vulnerability we would have in transitioning to such a program, having the military take over intelligence would be a disaster for a variety of reasons.

The military DOES have the training and resources, they also have operatives with shaggy haircuts and beards who never wear uniforms. You are right about the leeway though and that would be a good thing.

How could the military POSSIBLY screw up intelligence gathering anymore than it has been since at least 9/11?
 
I just realized that I only answered half of the question I was trying to answer, so I will take a stab at the rest.

As far as enforcing federal law - that is a good question. I personally have never heard RP answer this issue specifically, but I think the answer would go along the lines that the states would have the opportunity to enforce federal law in their jurisdictions, and if they can't or won't then they will lose federal funding. Also, it seems to me that under a Ron Paul presidency there would be less federal laws to try and enforce.
 
With all due respect to Ron Paul, the states have enough on their plate when it comes to enforcing state law. He can't just dodge his duty to enforce federal law by hoisting the enforcement of federal law on the states. I'd love to hear the reaction of governors to the proposal to either not enforce federal law, or to rely on the states to do this. If Ron Paul intends to eliminate or change the FBI in some manner, he ought to tell us how federal law will be enforced.

Also, it seems to me that under a Ron Paul presidency there would be less federal laws to try and enforce.

The President has a duty to enforce federal law. The federal criminal code is not going to disappear when the next president is elected, so there are not going to be less federal laws to enforce. If Ron Paul intends to ignore the rule of law by selectively enforcing federal law, then he shouldn't take the oath of office if elected.

Finally, how does Paul intend to collect taxes and fund the government after he eliminates the IRS?
 
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