Question about Handguns
- Thread starter Kate B.
- Start date
I don't plan to get caught up in what the gun looked like, or how loud it was, or how fast it was moving. They just help formulate the scenario in my head while I write. It is more of finding out what caliber bullet the gun uses, because then I can find out how much damage the bullet caused, therefore saying the death was instant or the character hung on for a little while. Some information I won't use, but it is still nice to know. I like to know thigs, too. Like some people (meaning my friends) think it is weird I know how many rounds and MG42 can shoot in a minute, or that I know exactly when JFK died. It's just useless info that is interesting to know.
And napg19- who is the character you figured out who took the bullet? I'm curious.
And napg19- who is the character you figured out who took the bullet? I'm curious.
I admit I jumped the gun so to speak before realizing you are on the up and up. I thought(which is bad for me) that you were looking for info to use to attack the 2nd Amendment. And I really Apologize for that. Therefore I thought the victim was anyone who owns a handgun.
As far as what bullet kills best or how. I'm by no means even close to knowing forensics but I've seen one good sized fellow who put a .22lr revolver to his chest and one shot to the heart and he was dead instantly. I will say every suicide case I've seen(this will sound dumb) one shot is all it took. Since I'm there after the fact(only to pickup the body) it's the coroners call as to figure out with what he see's as to how it happened which helps him determine time of death.
As far as what bullet kills best or how. I'm by no means even close to knowing forensics but I've seen one good sized fellow who put a .22lr revolver to his chest and one shot to the heart and he was dead instantly. I will say every suicide case I've seen(this will sound dumb) one shot is all it took. Since I'm there after the fact(only to pickup the body) it's the coroners call as to figure out with what he see's as to how it happened which helps him determine time of death.
I would defend the 2nd amendment to my death.
There are probably half a dozen guns in my house right now, even though some (the mosin nagant) don't fire.
But as a future soldier, I do believe guns are a necessisty. And I would go to the ends of the earth to defend my rights to own one.
(OK, I'm stepping off my soap box now.)
There are probably half a dozen guns in my house right now, even though some (the mosin nagant) don't fire.
But as a future soldier, I do believe guns are a necessisty. And I would go to the ends of the earth to defend my rights to own one.
(OK, I'm stepping off my soap box now.)
Welcome Kate!
And I hope you are as entertained by the characters here as you are informed. Its the nature of our membership. Some folks see trolls more than others.
Mostly you got good info, but there are a few things you might want to consider, especially if you're going to be writing about the more technical aspects of gunshot wounds. (btw, Bones is coming on soon, I love that show! Don't trust CSI, too much BS, pretending to be fact)
A person shot in the heart may collapse instantly, and die, or collapse instantly and die as much as a minute or two later. OR they have been known to stay on their feet, fighting or shooting for as much as a minute or more. IT's rare, but it has happened. Basically it depends on the mindset of the individual shot, and the physical loss of blood pressure/oxygen to the brain.
In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, the main shooter was hit by a 9mm round that basically took off the top of his heart, before he get out of his car. He lived for another minute plus, fired around a hundred rounds from a Mini 14, killed a couple of FBI agents, wounded others, before finally being shot to death while trying to drive away in another car! This is exceptional, but it did happen. A deer hunter can tell you that a heart shot deer may drop on the spot, but if they run, they will live, and run until they stop, then die. And they may travel many hundreds of yards before stopping. I have seen this myself. So the state of mind (and determination) of your character can play a reasonable part in how they react when shot. Most of the time, someone not spun up, shot without warning, will drop. But if something else fits your story better, its not totally outside the real of possibility. In the movies, victims often drop, and live long enough to gasp out something "with their dying breath". It does happen. Sometimes.
As to the sound level, intense, painful ringing in the ears, normal conversation will be hard to hear, and soft sounds will be drowned out. This will last for several hours, decreasing slowly with nearly normal hearing returning after some times passes (slightly different for different folks), but a slight ringing may persist for days. Slight high frequency hearing loss might be permanent, but would only be clinically detectable if you had a baseline hearing test from before the shot to measure against.
And as to other people in the building hearing the shot, yes, they would. However, it is unlikely that most would recognise the shot for what it actually is. People don't expect to hear gunshots at work (in a med facility, especially), so they would identify the attenuated sound of the shot as a light bulb breaking, or fire crackers, or some other common sound to their environment.
Hope this helps, and if you need more, ask! And again, Welcome to TFL.
And I hope you are as entertained by the characters here as you are informed. Its the nature of our membership. Some folks see trolls more than others.
Mostly you got good info, but there are a few things you might want to consider, especially if you're going to be writing about the more technical aspects of gunshot wounds. (btw, Bones is coming on soon, I love that show! Don't trust CSI, too much BS, pretending to be fact)
A person shot in the heart may collapse instantly, and die, or collapse instantly and die as much as a minute or two later. OR they have been known to stay on their feet, fighting or shooting for as much as a minute or more. IT's rare, but it has happened. Basically it depends on the mindset of the individual shot, and the physical loss of blood pressure/oxygen to the brain.
In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, the main shooter was hit by a 9mm round that basically took off the top of his heart, before he get out of his car. He lived for another minute plus, fired around a hundred rounds from a Mini 14, killed a couple of FBI agents, wounded others, before finally being shot to death while trying to drive away in another car! This is exceptional, but it did happen. A deer hunter can tell you that a heart shot deer may drop on the spot, but if they run, they will live, and run until they stop, then die. And they may travel many hundreds of yards before stopping. I have seen this myself. So the state of mind (and determination) of your character can play a reasonable part in how they react when shot. Most of the time, someone not spun up, shot without warning, will drop. But if something else fits your story better, its not totally outside the real of possibility. In the movies, victims often drop, and live long enough to gasp out something "with their dying breath". It does happen. Sometimes.
As to the sound level, intense, painful ringing in the ears, normal conversation will be hard to hear, and soft sounds will be drowned out. This will last for several hours, decreasing slowly with nearly normal hearing returning after some times passes (slightly different for different folks), but a slight ringing may persist for days. Slight high frequency hearing loss might be permanent, but would only be clinically detectable if you had a baseline hearing test from before the shot to measure against.
And as to other people in the building hearing the shot, yes, they would. However, it is unlikely that most would recognise the shot for what it actually is. People don't expect to hear gunshots at work (in a med facility, especially), so they would identify the attenuated sound of the shot as a light bulb breaking, or fire crackers, or some other common sound to their environment.
Hope this helps, and if you need more, ask! And again, Welcome to TFL.
Lost Sheep
New member
Terminal Ballistics
Kate,
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for asking our advice.
One of the subjects you are asking about is, "Terminal Ballistics". Go to your local library and see what is available. I once saw in our University Library, a book that was being disposed of (public sale of used books) a book you would be interested in. I think the title was "Wound Ballistics" which compiled and analyzed dozens (or hundreds) of shootings. Regrettably, I did not buy the book. But you may be able to find something like it in a general library or a University which has a medical school.
For the operational characteristics of firearms (loudness, specific features, etc), I hear you very well on how off-putting an technical error can be to a reader. I partook of a novel wherein the antagonist had a Colt Python (.357 Magnum double-action revolver) under his robe and the author had him "snick off the safety". Though I had enjoyed a couple of this author's books before, I never finished that one and will never read another of his. While he spun a good yarn (and I enjoy learning new things while reading) I object to being fed a line of bull disguised as entertainment. They say that the greatest truths are revealed in fiction, but an author who disrespects me with blatant-and lazy-falsehoods has lost all my respect-so much so that I cannot even remember his name any more.
I respect you for your dedication to accuracy and hope you never get discouraged from seeking it.
For details like how different bullets behave when hitting muscle, fat, bone clothing, etc. Use Google, search on "Terminal Ballistics", "Wound Ballistics", "Stopping Power" and such.
I am ending this post because I accidentally hit "Submit" before I was finished. But since this post is plenty long enough already, I will dedicate more time to editing down my next post to a more succinct compilation of advice.
Lost Sheep
Kate,
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for asking our advice.
One of the subjects you are asking about is, "Terminal Ballistics". Go to your local library and see what is available. I once saw in our University Library, a book that was being disposed of (public sale of used books) a book you would be interested in. I think the title was "Wound Ballistics" which compiled and analyzed dozens (or hundreds) of shootings. Regrettably, I did not buy the book. But you may be able to find something like it in a general library or a University which has a medical school.
For the operational characteristics of firearms (loudness, specific features, etc), I hear you very well on how off-putting an technical error can be to a reader. I partook of a novel wherein the antagonist had a Colt Python (.357 Magnum double-action revolver) under his robe and the author had him "snick off the safety". Though I had enjoyed a couple of this author's books before, I never finished that one and will never read another of his. While he spun a good yarn (and I enjoy learning new things while reading) I object to being fed a line of bull disguised as entertainment. They say that the greatest truths are revealed in fiction, but an author who disrespects me with blatant-and lazy-falsehoods has lost all my respect-so much so that I cannot even remember his name any more.
I respect you for your dedication to accuracy and hope you never get discouraged from seeking it.
For details like how different bullets behave when hitting muscle, fat, bone clothing, etc. Use Google, search on "Terminal Ballistics", "Wound Ballistics", "Stopping Power" and such.
I am ending this post because I accidentally hit "Submit" before I was finished. But since this post is plenty long enough already, I will dedicate more time to editing down my next post to a more succinct compilation of advice.
Lost Sheep
Last edited:
Head-Space
Moderator
Don't feed the trolls. 
Retired15T
New member
Kate....
You may hear from some lesser educated people that there's a waiting time required between when you fill out the background check paperwork for a weapon to when you can pick that weapon up.
In the past, you would have to wait like 7 days after filling out the paperwork before you could actually take possession of the weapon. Then it changed to five, then three, and currently, there's no waiting period. Just this past Tuesday, I decided I wanted a new Springfield Armory XD .45 handgun. I walked into the store, pointed to the one I wanted, filled out the paperwork, waited about five minutes while the clerk made a phone call and then I paid for it and was out the door. All told, maybe fifteen minutes from the time I first pointed at it until I was walking out the door with it.
Buying ammunition is even easier. It's just like buying a candy bar.
I want that, here's your money, see ya later.
But for info's sake, you have to be 21 to buy handguns and handgun ammo and you have to be 18 to buy shotguns/rifles and the ammo for them.
But that background check is what makes the difference. Your character, if you've built that character up with a nefarious background of bad deeds, can have a falsified drivers license and false Social Security Number. It costs about $5k to get these documents "professionally" done. Or you can spend a lot less and use the ID papers for a one time gig like buying a gun. There are plenty of case stories on this subject on the Internet. Also, watching a show like The First 48 Hours, where they follow an actual police investigation into a homicide, can give you an in depth look and valuable information about crimes of homicide. But your parents may not want you watching that kind of show. I've allowed my son to watch it with me because he has learned a whole lot about how rough life can be out there. And me just telling him about how I grew up isn't always something he listens too.
You may hear from some lesser educated people that there's a waiting time required between when you fill out the background check paperwork for a weapon to when you can pick that weapon up.
In the past, you would have to wait like 7 days after filling out the paperwork before you could actually take possession of the weapon. Then it changed to five, then three, and currently, there's no waiting period. Just this past Tuesday, I decided I wanted a new Springfield Armory XD .45 handgun. I walked into the store, pointed to the one I wanted, filled out the paperwork, waited about five minutes while the clerk made a phone call and then I paid for it and was out the door. All told, maybe fifteen minutes from the time I first pointed at it until I was walking out the door with it.
Buying ammunition is even easier. It's just like buying a candy bar.
I want that, here's your money, see ya later.
But for info's sake, you have to be 21 to buy handguns and handgun ammo and you have to be 18 to buy shotguns/rifles and the ammo for them.
But that background check is what makes the difference. Your character, if you've built that character up with a nefarious background of bad deeds, can have a falsified drivers license and false Social Security Number. It costs about $5k to get these documents "professionally" done. Or you can spend a lot less and use the ID papers for a one time gig like buying a gun. There are plenty of case stories on this subject on the Internet. Also, watching a show like The First 48 Hours, where they follow an actual police investigation into a homicide, can give you an in depth look and valuable information about crimes of homicide. But your parents may not want you watching that kind of show. I've allowed my son to watch it with me because he has learned a whole lot about how rough life can be out there. And me just telling him about how I grew up isn't always something he listens too.
For whatever it's worth, accurate detail is very important to an educated reader. If you're going to include detail, verifying it is critical. One of the above posters talked about snicking off the safety of a revolver in a scene - the revolver described doesn't have a safety catch (almost none do). I remember buying a book in which the back-cover blurb said that the author was an expert in helicopters in warfare. On something like the fifth page, the helicopter was flying along at 300 knots per hour. A knot is a nautical mile per hour, so he was flying at 300 nautical miles per hour per hour. Either this chopper had incredible acceleration, or (more likely) the author is a fake expert or his editor is an idiot who second guesses his expert author. Either way, I never got past that page.
If you're going to go into detail, maybe a simple shot to the heart is too much of a cliche. There are many ways to play that game:
She pointed the Glock at the man she had sworn to kill and said,"At this range, I can't miss putting a bullet in your heart." She was wrong. Just as she fired, her target started to turn. The 9mm jacketed hollow point bullet entered his body in the gap between two ribs but missed his heart completely. It did, however, tear a hole in his aorta big enough so that he had bled to death internally by the time his heels had stopped bouncing on the floor. As she stood there watching her enemy die, she realized that all she could hear was the ringing in her ears even though she could see that the man's daughter was screaming.
If you're going to go into detail, maybe a simple shot to the heart is too much of a cliche. There are many ways to play that game:
She pointed the Glock at the man she had sworn to kill and said,"At this range, I can't miss putting a bullet in your heart." She was wrong. Just as she fired, her target started to turn. The 9mm jacketed hollow point bullet entered his body in the gap between two ribs but missed his heart completely. It did, however, tear a hole in his aorta big enough so that he had bled to death internally by the time his heels had stopped bouncing on the floor. As she stood there watching her enemy die, she realized that all she could hear was the ringing in her ears even though she could see that the man's daughter was screaming.
It is always good for an author to try and get the details down. http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/MDSL.pdf is a NRA site that has an overview of the gun laws for the State of Maryland. If the murderer is carrying the gun, you will have to consider how is he carrying it. Is he a normal law abiding citizen that would have a concealed carry permit or a criminal that would carry permit or not. You can get a MD carry permit as well as an out-of-state VA permit. I think the MD permits are very hard to get. For VA you just need no criminal record, mental issues a little training and send in the money.
Glock 19 is a good choice for a novice buying a gun, many clerks will lead a person to one. Not too expensive, simple to operate.
If you really want to investigate, it may be worth while finding someone who can take you to a range to try a Glock 19 out. The loudness will not be quite right due to ear protection but things like recoil, muzzle flash etc. are easy to experience (you do not want to fire without ear protection or eye protection). Also at most inside ranges I have been too you can hear the shoots from outside, that will give you an idea of how the sound travels.
Glock 19 is a good choice for a novice buying a gun, many clerks will lead a person to one. Not too expensive, simple to operate.
If you really want to investigate, it may be worth while finding someone who can take you to a range to try a Glock 19 out. The loudness will not be quite right due to ear protection but things like recoil, muzzle flash etc. are easy to experience (you do not want to fire without ear protection or eye protection). Also at most inside ranges I have been too you can hear the shoots from outside, that will give you an idea of how the sound travels.
Blue Steel
New member
It depends on the construction of the building, but I would say it is not likely to be heard more than one story away (if that), unless the shot was fired in a stairwell or elevator.
This depends on the type of firearm. Search youtube videos of people shooting guns to get an idea about recoil.
It is not likely that death would be instant, or that a person would be knocked unconscious by a handgun wound to the body.
A Speer Gold Dot 115 grain 9mm bullet leaves a 4-inch barrel at 1210 feet per second, carrying 374 foot lbs of energy. This would not be greatly reduced by your short flight distance. You can research this type of information at different ammunition websites.
With the wealth of information out there on the internet, you might find more information using a search engine, as opposed to asking questions in a forum.
Good luck on your book, and kudos for trying to write with some realism.
Mutatio Nomenis
Moderator
1. What handguns are more easily obtained than others? (Like a Smith & Wesson SW1911 might be easier to purchase than a 1940s Luger)
Things like a glock 17 are easily obtainable. I don't know specific models, but it's pretty easy to also get a ruger redhawk.
2. If you are of legal age, can you walk into a gun shop and purchase a firearm such as a handgun with a photo ID, but no gun permit?
I don't know. I think it may vary by state.
3. Can you buy weapons in one state if your ID is from another? (Like a man from Delaware, with a Delaware ID, buying a gun in North Carolina)
I'm pretty sure you can. The question might be licensing.
4. I know the caliber of the bullet would affect blood loss, but to what degree?
A smaller caliber bullet will not cause the same outright trauma as a large bullet. A 30 cal isn't going to do anywhere near as much damage as a 50AE.
5. And overall the specifics of buying any sort of handgun, the cost, procedure, anything to that effect.
I don't know, so in my work, I have a lot of the gun buying taking place offscreen or online.
Things like a glock 17 are easily obtainable. I don't know specific models, but it's pretty easy to also get a ruger redhawk.
2. If you are of legal age, can you walk into a gun shop and purchase a firearm such as a handgun with a photo ID, but no gun permit?
I don't know. I think it may vary by state.
3. Can you buy weapons in one state if your ID is from another? (Like a man from Delaware, with a Delaware ID, buying a gun in North Carolina)
I'm pretty sure you can. The question might be licensing.
4. I know the caliber of the bullet would affect blood loss, but to what degree?
A smaller caliber bullet will not cause the same outright trauma as a large bullet. A 30 cal isn't going to do anywhere near as much damage as a 50AE.
5. And overall the specifics of buying any sort of handgun, the cost, procedure, anything to that effect.
I don't know, so in my work, I have a lot of the gun buying taking place offscreen or online.
Kate I respect your attention to detail as far as your book is concerned, as a English major our Lit professors drill the importance of fine details into our heads and remind us of the details we forget about or overlook each time our papers are graded and returned to us.
As a fellow writer, the one thing I ask of you is to NOT have the shooter flip the safety of the Glock off, as the safety on the Glock is part of the trigger and cannot be flipped off, like a safety on a Beretta 92fs could.
Good Luck, from one writer to another!
As a fellow writer, the one thing I ask of you is to NOT have the shooter flip the safety of the Glock off, as the safety on the Glock is part of the trigger and cannot be flipped off, like a safety on a Beretta 92fs could.
Good Luck, from one writer to another!
One more thing to keep in mind Maryland has much stricter gun laws than say Virginia or Pennsylvania. But you have to be a resident of the state you purchase the gun in (and be of legal age, 21 for a pistol), or have the pistol shipped from a FFL in the state the gun is located in to a FFL in your state.
Best Regards,
Tyler
Best Regards,
Tyler
alienbogey
New member
Kate,
From one (unpublished) novelist to another welcome to the forum and, as others have said, kudos for doing your homework. I have a few comments which I hope will add to what others have said:
• This is an internet forum and the posts (including mine) may not be entirely accurate - take the general knowledge offered, but back that up with unimpeachable sources. For example, from a previous post:
<<No, a handgun is a handgun is a firearm. You can't buy a firearm without a background check.>>
This statement is incorrect. In most states it is perfectly legal to buy a firearm from a private party with no background check and no governmental oversight at all. An individual can answer a classified ad in the local paper, go to the seller's home, hand over the $$, and legally go home with the long gun or handgun.
• This website: http://www.handgunlaw.us/ provides information on firearms laws state by state, usually with citations from the applicable state's laws as well as links to the law sources. I consider it to be very reliable.
• Your original post seemed to imply and most responders assumed that you meant that your character would buy a new firearm from a retail store and, accordingly, fill out all the required paperwork. Would your character necessarily buy a firearm that way?
As the writer you know your character best - Would he/she be more prone to buy new from a store, or save money buying used from a classified ad? What are the character's original plans for the weapon? Would it better suit the character or the story to have him buy the pistol from a store, a friend, or from a shady character in a back ally?
I realize that now I'm trespassing on your writer's territory when all you asked for was technical info from a specialty forum, but I can't help it.
Good luck with the novel, I know how hard the whole process is.
From one (unpublished) novelist to another welcome to the forum and, as others have said, kudos for doing your homework. I have a few comments which I hope will add to what others have said:
• This is an internet forum and the posts (including mine) may not be entirely accurate - take the general knowledge offered, but back that up with unimpeachable sources. For example, from a previous post:
<<No, a handgun is a handgun is a firearm. You can't buy a firearm without a background check.>>
This statement is incorrect. In most states it is perfectly legal to buy a firearm from a private party with no background check and no governmental oversight at all. An individual can answer a classified ad in the local paper, go to the seller's home, hand over the $$, and legally go home with the long gun or handgun.
• This website: http://www.handgunlaw.us/ provides information on firearms laws state by state, usually with citations from the applicable state's laws as well as links to the law sources. I consider it to be very reliable.
• Your original post seemed to imply and most responders assumed that you meant that your character would buy a new firearm from a retail store and, accordingly, fill out all the required paperwork. Would your character necessarily buy a firearm that way?
As the writer you know your character best - Would he/she be more prone to buy new from a store, or save money buying used from a classified ad? What are the character's original plans for the weapon? Would it better suit the character or the story to have him buy the pistol from a store, a friend, or from a shady character in a back ally?
I realize that now I'm trespassing on your writer's territory when all you asked for was technical info from a specialty forum, but I can't help it.
Good luck with the novel, I know how hard the whole process is.