Question about carrying

Some states allow you to use your firearm to create the apprehension that you may use deadly force. In TX, you may do so, but the situation must be serious enough that it warrants the use of FORCE (but not deadly force) in self-defense.

You don't want to present a gun unless you're justifed in using at least force (if not deadly force) in self-defense. There's a real danger that your actions could be used as a justification for someone else's using self-defense against YOU if you "jump the gun". :D (Sorry)
 
JohnKSA,

I live in TX, have read the laws pertaining to conceal carry several times but did not see anything like that (create apprehension = use of force but not deadly force).

Do you know of a resource that has the laws of TX spelled out for us readers who are law-comprehensive-challenged? I have looked up stuff like Texas CHL for Dummies and similar things but can't find anything I trust.
 
I usually just go here. The TX CHL forum isn't a bad resource, but like any other forum there can be a good deal of bickering about the specific interpretation of laws.

Here's the section I was referring to. It's in the penal code.

§ 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.​

My take on this (as a NON-Lawyer) is that if force is justified that you can draw/show your weapon but probably shouldn't point it.

The main issue is that you have to be careful about getting into a situation where your actions could be viewed as sufficient justification for self-defense on the part of the other person.
 
Junior Member

\ I guess i do leave too many details out. I guess more so im just wondering what types of situations you would justify having to use your weapon. Myself I am a fairly small guy being my fully grown self at 130 lbs and 5'8" ish. I'm honestly not too confident in defending myself against many people that would be larger in size. This is some good info to read though for everyone that posted. I think this Is one reason why I don't know if I'll ever carry because I will either not use it when i should or the possibility of doing something wrong. With people being all sue happy and with all the laws around the issue sometimes it scares me lol.
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As another poster pointed out, you have to make this decision before you carry. I myself am 5'6 155lbs. My first defense is situational awareness and carrying myself when I am out in such a way that my body language reads that I am aware of my surroundings and am not afraid. I back it up with pepper spray if a non-life threatening physical altercation is imminent, and my .38 if I do find myself in a life threatening situation.

I firmly believe that most altercations are avoidable, and a weapon is only for situations where there are no other choices. I respect your self honesty. Carrying a gun when you are not trained to use it properly and more importantly not mentally prepared to use it when needed (or to know when not to pull it) can get you killed.

Your best defense though is situational awareness and avoiding situations that can leave you vulernable. Always be aware of your surroundings. Always know who is around you and learn how to read body language. I personally try to avoid being out at night. My wife and I do our grocery shopping, gas fill ups, Wally World runs, etc. only during the day. We never use ATM's (I get cash back at the grocery store). I never go to convenience-marts.

Again, the goal is to try and keep out of dangerous situations before they ever have a chance to happen. This is IMHO the best defense any of us have, and one all of us can/should practice regardless if we carry or don't carry a weapon.
 
I usually just go here. The TX CHL forum isn't a bad resource, but like any other forum there can be a good deal of bickering about the specific interpretation of laws.

Here's the section I was referring to. It's in the penal code.

§ 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
My take on this (as a NON-Lawyer) is that if force is justified that you can draw/show your weapon but probably shouldn't point it.

The main issue is that you have to be careful about getting into a situation where your actions could be viewed as sufficient justification for self-defense on the part of the other person.
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Excellent point. An altercation with another person is an organic and unpredictable situation. While brandishing may be justified and effective, it can also lead to a direct escalation.
 
quote:
".... avoiding situations that can leave you vulnerable ........."
I guess the mass exodus from the nation's big cities would validate that strategy. (fleeing anarchy ?) :(
 
Draw only when you have to use it, use it to stop the attack. Do not shoot to kill, injure or frighten only to stop an attack.
 
You sometimes can use a gun to avoid hurting or killing.

very controversial subject, but:

I have seen warning shots (into the ground, never into the air!) work very well and I have seen drawing a gun and just waiting, pointing the muzzle down working. You sometimes can use a gun to avoid hurting or killing.

I don't agree to the general rule, "don't draw until you shoot somebody". Sometimes a warning shot or just holding the gun ready in your hands (not brandishin, just having it in your hands and waiting for how the situation turns out) are good tactics.
 
Thats sort of what I was thinking. Because I am guessing that the odds are in favor of, if someone decides to attack you, that if they see you pull out or show a gun they will probably back off and leave. I don't know if thats really how it would be, but If i were to wanna jump someone as soon as I saw a gun I'd get the hell outta there.
 
When I carried concealed or even unconcealed I was not a permit holder. I woulda took my swats for that had I needed to defend myself or someone else.
With that said, If I brandish ANY firearm in ANY location it will be ONLY to STOP a threat. It is going to go from concealed, stored etc. to ready, aimed and fired in one motion! The decision to shoot will already have been made prior to grabbing the gun! If the person would have been frightened off by my gun and ran off we will never know! I do not believe in warning shots for 3 reasons... first it is dangerous to fire at anything but YOUR INTENDED TARGET, second is that I ain't in the business of wasting money on ammo, last I am down one round if I need my weapon to save my life or that of another LAW ABIDING citizen. Guns and the drawing of one is not to scare anyone into submission it is to STOP THE THREAT... and STOP IT I will!
I do not feel I have to grant alot of respect to a felon law breaker and anyone that threatens me or someone else enuff for me to draw a weapon of any type is commiting a felony crime!
Brent
 
I don't know, hogdogs. I see what you're saying, but I've got to fall just short of "definitely will" shoot. Quite some time ago, I told of an incident I had on TFL. This guy WAS a threat, and WAS holding a weapon, though I couldn't tell exactly what it was in the dim light. I sure wasn't going to ask. I brandished my firearm when all else failed. I definitely would have used it had he not very quickly changed his tune, but change it he did, and I am VERY GLAD he did. In the end, brandishing worked, but I DID NOT brandish it with the intention of scaring him, it was to use it. It was a fortunate side effect that kept me out of trouble. BTW, he did not see it and run, in fact he seemed at first to get angry, but he backed off (good sign #1), then he grumbled, stomped & swore a bit, but then he LEFT - the best possible outcome.
My point is, had I not given him those very few short second to reconsider, I'd now be still tangled up in a legal hell, having put several .45 Hydrashocks into the SOB. That was coming in about 2.5 seconds. I believe there are instances where brandishing is effective, but I agree not to brandish just because you think it might scare them off.
 
Pretty much...never pull your gun unless you are both willing to pull the trigger and have reason to believe you would have just cause in doing so. That being said, do not fall into tthe old trap of the "if you pull it, shoot it" mentality. That is one the dumbest things in the world. If you pull it and the bad guy with a machette stops in his tracks and turns tail and runs put the gun away and call the police.
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This sums it the best and is the best advice I have read so far in this thread. It is, in a nutshell, all you are going to have time to keep in mind when your life is in danger.

Thanks for the on point and succinct post, playboy..
 
When I carried it was a ruger P-85 (i know this dates me a bit)... My personal training practice was to flip safety as it was drawn. The "few seconds" you mention that gave the BG time to reconsider are not something I will offer! If someone pulls a gun on me while i am unarmed I will try to call their bluff and play a defensive game of chicken knowing that most folks are not ready to be rushed when they brandish any weapon... I will flat go ape-crap on them! I ain't gonna pull a gun on a "THREAT" that may have the same plan. My attacker will not know I am armed until he feels it burn.
I do agree with just about everything in the thread... I will NEVER pull a gun for less than life saving defense but I am pretty quick at target acquisition and intend to STOP a threat... now if a BG sees my draw as more than a bluff and turns before I fire, I will not shoot him in the back! I will not verbally warn anyone that I am armed. If they intend to harm me or someone else without warning I will not warn them! If they verbally state their intent, the most they get from me is "DON'T BE STUPID A-HOLE!"... I was taught to keep my abilities and weapons private until forced to make them public record...
Brent
 
Each case is juged individually, and so is the case in the initial question, about some one drawing a gun on you because you drew first.

If I have to draw my gun on a person it's because the person is coming at me with criminal violence on his mind. Should the aggressor at that point begin to draw a gun on me, that would just further prove to me the fact that he had bad intentions to begin with. He could back down if he wanted to. I would shoot to kill if he was trying to fish for whatever. Now, a similar situation, where a person draws a gun on some one and that second person responds by drawing his gun, could be a situation of overly anxiousness from the first drawer. The first drawer could be over-reacting or misreading the situation of attack compleatly. Morally and legally the first drawer can not kill the second person if the second person is trying to just defend himself by showing and pointing his gun.

I don't buy into the talk about a one-man attack not being enough for deadly self defense in response. As I see it, any person who attacks a good-natured calm person like me is a complete maniac, and a maniac is capable of anything once he has me knocked down on the ground. Must I trust that the maniac doesn't stomp on my head once he has me knocked down? I rather shoot first than becomming a vegetable. The attacker was wrong from the start. A seemingly unarmed attacker would however enjoy a first spoken warning by me as I was pointing my gun to his chest. Should he not choose to leave me alone at that point but proceed with his attack, I would shoot to kill. An armed attacker would probably not enjoy a warning first, as too little time is all I have on my side.
 
One thing I keep in mind: as problematic as they may seem abstractly, the chances of any potential lethal encounter are very slim to begin with , and I believe, out of those, when a CCW pulls their gun the BG flees 80% of the time. That leaves a very, very, very slim chance you will both have to shoot AND make a mistake. On top of that, I think most SD shootings, when they do happen, are "clean", there are not mistakes, (although I don't have stats for that).

In other words, this will likely always stay an abstract problem. To balance the small potential negative that it won't, is the much greater chance you will have more ease of mind when around dangerous environments, and if something does happen you will likely escape, either because the instigator fled, or is shot - and shot justifiably. On that basis, I chose to carry, in the specific circumstances when I am increased danger: for me, that is on foot, alone, at night.

And the rest: I tell myself: "Act in any encounter exactly the same as you would have before you had a CCW, unless it is overwhemingly clear you are going to be killed/seriously injured NOW. Then, save your life with what's available". (And I go to the range a lot.). What else can you do in life? Ultimately, you take your chances with anything you choose, driving, running (heart-attack), swimming, flying in an airplane.... If the reward outweighs the risk, take your shots and hope for the best from the fates.

If you try ccw, and it's a source of continual fear over what could happen, then fine, it's not for you. For me, I feel easier than I used to, so it works. Keep it simple./QUOTE]

I think that we all need to take a sec and read the post from GVF again and again. I carry because I want to carry. I carry, not intending on having to save my life of that of one of my family, but hopefully I have the training to handle such a situation. But, I also hope that even while not armed I have the training to save my life even if it is simply by outrunning the BG. I dont have the stats but I am betting that during the lifetime of a CCW they will never have to use their gun to fight for their life or the life of someone they are trying to protect. I love to read these postings and see the number of people giving advice on how to handle themselves in a life and death situation. I would bet that very few of these individuals actually have the "first" hand experience (I dont either). Most police officers dont even have this type of experience and they are being paid to put themselves in bad situation after bad situation. All we are doing is picking up the kids and getting some KFC. I know that some of these posters do have first hand knowledge and they should be respected for trying to help us better understand what we might face.

All I am trying to say is if when you pull your gun and the BG runs away (armed or not) then job well done. He more than likely will not be running to the police to tell them you have a gun and you were a bad boy and pulled it out even though he did not threaten to kill you. On the off chance that when the gun is pulled and he walks over and sticks his finger in the barrel, you dont have time to think about what kind of man you are, you should already know that while the gun is in the sock.
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LEGAL DISCLAIMER... DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS!
It was a few years back when a deputy told me that IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, a citizen has the right to "Hold with force if necessary, any person committing a felony crime..." I tried to hold a crackhead (obviously selling rock in Daytona Beach) but a bystander coming to help me screaming distracted me long enough for the little weasel to scoot. I was armed with only my pig sticking buck knife and it was open and brandished! Yes I was trying to be a vigilante but that word in english is VIGILANT and I was damn tired of crack deals being commited in public including in front of my house and also tired of being flagged down to be asked if I wanted to buy crack! Possession of crack is a felony and dealing is higher level. It was the high crime level of that area that made me decide to move to the boonies where I now reside!
Here is a little report about the county I NOW reside in... I feel these numbers are lower than anywhere I have ever lived...
In Walton County, the crime rate of crimes per 100,000 people was down by 29.2 percent from 2005. The index crimes of murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and larceny were all down in Walton County. In Walton County in 2006, there were two murders (down from three in 2005), six forcible rapes (down from 11 in 2005), two robberies (down from 13 in 2005), 109 aggravated assaults (down from 247 in 2005), 180 burglaries (down from 264 in 2005), and 659 larcenies (down from 792 in 2005). Only motor vehicle theft - also an index crime - showed a slight increase, up to 80 reported incidents from 77 reported in 2005 in Walton County.
Statewide, the rate of all of the above-listed index crimes was up, except for forcible sex offenses, which decreased statewide by 5.4 percent from 2005. Statewide domestic violence was down by 4.3 percent from 2005.
The above figures are based on reported offenses. The report was made based on information submitted by 410 of the 416 local, county and state law enforcement agencies, serving approximately 99.9 percent of the state’s population.
Brent
 
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