Question about Beretta vs. Sig Sauer

Got to side with Wild Romanian and Serpent on this one...Nobody wants to hear bad news about their pet rocks, but...

My very first posts on this forum (a coupla years ago) were a direct result of the routinely abysmal failures of military M-9s in my unit. I was just checking the net to see if I could find anyone else in the world experiencing the same problems. Didn't find many complaints from recreational shooters, but found plenty of problems with high usage military units and unit armorers.

I posted a number of times (check the archives) and won't bother repeating everything. The salient points are:

1. I have personally been observing Beretta M9s fail at an alarming rate for the since we traded in our 1911A1s back in '94. My companies issue and use aprox. 82 of these weapons. A battalion issues over 300. A typical year's usage will see between 35-50 locking block failures (per company) and a goodly amount of trigger return spring failures (10-20). We generally start having failures between 2500-4000k. This might sound like a lot of ammo to some, but is often burned thru in 1-3 months. Our REALLY high volume of ammo units simply replace ALL pistols EVERY year.

2. The failures occur with old M9s, with new M9s, and with military armory refurbished M9s. They occur w/ all types of 9mm, but generally w/ US issue 9mm Ball (about 1250 fps). All the excuses about "hot" NATO sub-gun ammo are a choking doberman crock, 'cause our varied allies ROUTINELY fire the same stuff thru their pistols (P-35, HK USP, Walther P-1, CZ-75/85, SIGs, etc.) without comparable problems. IT'S NOT THE AMMO...IT'S THE WEAPON.

3. Why do you think Beretta had to re-engineer the M9 for the Army and install a captive hammer pin w/ a flange? Cause the slides flew off! Why did Beretta re-engineer a beefed-up upper receiver? Cause the upper receiver would crack in half! Why did Beretta have to re-engineer the locking block? Cause the original design breaks after moderate use! BTW, the new locking block is not immune. I can't wait for the re-design of the trigger return spring (which has a bad habit of snapping in half or falling out).

4. With reference to comments about the SEALS, US Army, etc. not fielding an inadequate weapon (after gruuuuelling torture tests): Lions and Tigers and Bears...Oh My! Of course they would. Our equipment is generally procured from the lowest bidder and often in the face of practical input from the end users. Check out the history of US small arms procurement and you will find such gems as the Krag, .38 caliber revolvers of all makes and models, the M-60 (vs. the MAG-58), the M-14 (vs. the FAL), and the ill-fated teething problems of the original M16 (after the Ordnance Branch screwed up the AR-15. SEALs don't use M9s cause they don't have to. The Army rams the M9 down the throats of its troops because they bought it in too great a quantity to backpeddle. In any event, only a few units put enough rounds down range to bring the weaknesses of the M9 into the full light of day. Unfortunately, those guys are now carrying said weapon in harms way...in Afghanistan. Oh well, thats why the M4A1 is the PRIMARY weapon. The odds of your Beretta failing you in mid-magazine are MUCH greater than the odds of your Explorer's Firestones blowing out. I'll just bet that most of you wouldn't refuse the offered recall of those tires...

4. In the last month, I have personally, as NCOIC of my unit's ranges, been called upon to examine two M9s which decided to quit working in the middle of firing drills. One broken locking block (sheared) and one broken trigger return spring (one half of spring retained...the other half somewhere in the weeds). Both caused immediate cessation of firing and neither were quickly repairable without on-hand spare parts, tools, and time (all in short supply when under fire).

5. I'm not Skelton, Cooper, Ayoob, SGT York, Cirrillo, the Head Poobah Armorer of Metropolis PD, or a member of Team Beretta. I AM an active duty (24 years of service) US Army SF NCO... all of it in SOF (75th Ranger, various SF Groups). I will admit that opinions are like ***holes, but I will stack my credentials and experience against most. Tamara had a good point about about the color of the sky. From where I sit, my Beretta M9 sky IS green.

6. Is the Beretta a horrible gun? NO. It has a lot of REALLY GOOD features. Same for the SIG. I would definitely give the SIG the vote for mechanical durability. I give the Beretta the edge for being able to endlessly digest and fire all manner of loads even when filthy dirty and covered in crud (at least until it breaks). I'm just not under any delusions about the M9. I relegate it to mental shelf that holds the M60 GPMG. When it works...great; when it stops working...you'd better have Plan B close at hand.

If the Beretta is free, shoot it and enjoy. If it's your nickle, buy the SIG.

BTW: Serpent...18 Series guy? Or somewhere else?
 
Chindo 18Z,

Yes, Berettas do crack locking blocks. Never have I said they don't. However, I have noticed a few patterns to it:

1. Seems to happen far more often and far more rapidly to U.S.-manufactured 92-series guns than to Italian-made ones.
2. Doesn't happen anywhere near as often on the newer "Brigadier" type guns. (We've got a serious IPSC-shooting customer who's got 12-ish thousand and counting through an Elite with no hiccups other than an original recoil spring that seemed to get soft awul fast)
3. Dirty little secret: cracked locking blocks on Berettas that come in our shop get replaced with Taurus locking blocks. Much better steel. :eek:
 
After reading that last post i think i'll go with the Sig.
The Beretta to me is more comfortable. But mainly i want
a reliable home defense gun . And from all the post it
seems like Sig Sauer is more durable.
 
WR:

No hard feelings. Merely trying to get a few curious questions I had about you and your theories on this topic answered, that's all. Your comments were as mentioned kind of generalized and stereotypical, and I am just sick of hearing people attack each different brands of guns for stereotyped reasons over personal experienced ones. Every gun has their good and bad points, and it all comes down to weighing out every good and bad points of each gun, and going with that. I don't mean to sound like I am attacking you, and I know everyone in hear is more harsh on you than I am, but again, I was questioning your points instead of attacking, just wanted to find some answers from you. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

Al205:

You will not be disaapointed with the Sig P226. You may have one or two minor complaints about it depending on your taste and experience, and needs, but this is of all guns. But you will not regret buying it, even over the Beretta, that is one thing I can be sure of.
 
Lets face it the 1911 was issued both commercial and government ammo and has never had the catastrophic failures that some of the newer issued pistols have had. This is historical fact. I did not invent the story of Gov't Beretta's blowing up or Beretta's blowing up in civilian hands or Sig's suffering frame failures. This has all been published in the media.
Click to expand...

The SIG frame cracks happen to rental guns on ranges, too. They don't affect the operation of the gun except to cause it to shoot slightly to the left. Most people don't shoot their personal handguns as much as an LEO training unit or the rental guns at a firing range, so this is usually a non-issue for Joe Consumer. Incidentally, sometimes Glock rentals have suffered similar cracks at excessively high round counts. 1911's crack frames, too. Even forged-steel frame guns. The cracks occur right at the slide stop; surely you've seen this. If not, I have two words for you: "Delta" and "Elite".
 
Lets face it the 1911 was issued both commercial and government ammo and has never had the catastrophic failures that some of the newer issued pistols have had. This is historical fact.

Lets face it if your at the range and you see someone with a jam and can't tell what kind of pistol it is at first and you take the time to go up and look 99% of the time it will be a 1911.
PAT
 
Tecolote,

"Were these mags with stock bases or were they after market base plates?"

Sorry, have no idea. I remember only one case where the Glock guy used a longer mag than the factory one, perhaps a 20+(?) mag.
 
I love my Berettas!(so far)

I've only owned my Berettas for a month now, but I can tell you, they beat the last taurus 92 I had no questions asked! I bought a 92FS and an M9 limited edition and they aren't target guns, but I can hold 2.5 to 3" groups offhand with either of mine at 15 yards. I know thats not great, but its plenty to save the bacon, I have no idea what they will do from sandbags. As far as the durability issue, there are sources that state the beretta is much improved over the earlier ones. All guns have certain flaws, and recently on this board, somebody was having problems with their springfield 1911a1 stainless that cracked a slide completely in two! Are these lousy guns? I think not, probably that pistol was inspected friday afternoon a half hour before quitting time, and the Q.C. let it slip by. My Berettas both came with a lifetime REPLACEMENT guarantee from Davidson's. As A last note, when I was in boot camp at Fort Knox (armor), my drill sergeant had nothing but accolades for the M9, stating that it was a great weapon. I'm sure he had spent a lot of time on the firing ranges teaching recruits to use the M9... I know we spent a lot of time getting to know it.


Pat Brophy
 
Not true, WR. No one hates you, but you do come up with some of the dumbest conclusions ever read on a public forum.

Some examples:

Don't practice with your CCW weapon because it could break.
GLOCKs suck because they can't fire poorly reloaded rounds.
All modern handguns are crap because you have decided so, not because of real, cold facts. (Then you go off and cite some dumber-than-**** example of why this is so.)

I don't understand why you make it such a mission to put down the more modern pistols. I think the BHP is the butt-ugliest looking pistol I've seen in my life and I don't like it, but you don't see me trying to prove that it is crappy or outdated. Also, I do not believe for a second that all of the GLOCKs, SIGs, and Berettas you've seen were total crap.
 
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