Question about Beretta vs. Sig Sauer

The truth hurts so none of them will believe you.

blocks. I have been shooting the SIG 226 since 1992 and have put about the same amount of rounds through it a year. I have seen SIG slide rails crack, but I have not seen the weapon fail to operate or experience a catastrophic failure due to the cracks. If anyone out their has let me know. This is just my humble observation and I hope this does not hurt anyone’s feelings, but you did ask.
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I am glad that someone out there knows the real truth about the durability of these guns.

It is no big secret about Sig frame failures. It was well published in some of the shooting periodicals (I think it was gun week) several years ago. Judging from all the praise in these responses no one seems to be aware of it.

One comment I would like to make myself is about the lack of a back strap on the P226. The plastic grips envelope the main spring and strut that hang naked down below the rear of the pistol. Drop this gun hard and if the grips break the main spring and strut are sure to be damaged or bent which will put the pistol out of commission faster than a cat can jump off a hot tin roof. Of course we will now hear howls that no one ever falls down with a pistol and if they do the plastic grips are indestructable.

I also read your comments about the locking block. I personally saw a Taurus pt92 which is basically a south american Beretta 9mm lock up and it had to be sent back to the factory.
There are just too many stories about civilian and military slide and block failures to disbelieve them all.

Handy recently published a post about military armorers throwing Beretta's's away with locked up slides.

As far as accuracy. Try shooting a composite 32 round group at 25 yards with either of these pistols and you will be in for a shock. They generally are good for 3 to 4 inch groups. There are other pistols that will shoot composite groups of half this size.

I own both of these pistols. The Sig is very top heavy and it does not recover well for rapid fire. It does not sit well in the hand or point naturally. It does have a good trigger pull that is slightly better than the Beretta.

I am not impressed by either pistol. The accuracy and durability just are not there. I will take the steel framed High Power any day not only because of its durability and accuracy but because of its first shot hit probability. It is much higher than the hard first shot double action pull of the Beretta and the Sig.

I do not trust sheet metal roll pins, sheet metal internal parts, sheet metal slides and aluminum frames.

Common sense tells you solid pins, forged internal parts and a steel frame is the better way to go. W.R.
 
I do not trust sheet metal roll pins, sheet metal internal parts, sheet metal slides and aluminum frames.

Common sense tells you solid pins, forged internal parts and a steel frame is the better way to go. W.R.
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So why buy two examples of those inferior designs? Did your common sense leave you that day? Or did you just want to add those pieces of junk to the Schlocks you dislike (but own not just one, but two.)
 
WR,

You sure do blow a lot of money on crappy guns you can't stand.

Two 9mm "Shlocks", and a lousy inferior-design Beretta and a subpar recycled beer can SIG. Best I can figure, that's $1500 (assuming you purchased used guns; if new, more like $2k) on guns you've said you wouldn't use for wheel chocks. Must be nice to throw that money around. What kind of failures have you experienced with the 92fs and the 226? What variant of 226 is it? Does it have a stainless slide?

Explain how these inferior guns snuck through the torture tests of the procurement programs of half the militaries in the world. (I'm sure you know more about weaponry than the ordnance officers of the SAS and the Navy SeALS, two noted users of the P-226)

You really should show us a picture of that gun collection sometime.
 
I'm sorry, but that sure is alot of complaint for someone who owns and still owns both guns. That is probably the first time I have heard anyone say that the P226 is top heavy and does not feel or shoot right. One of the best and most accurate 9mm guns out there is the P226. As far as cracks on the Sig frames, another stereotype IMO. Every gun supposedly has its own stereotype problem. I heard people saying Glocks all jam and that the Hk USP's has a slide and firing pin problem, etc. Only a handful of people had the problems and all of a sudden, it becomes a hyped stereotype. As I have said it before, it is the person or shooter who is responsible. How he treats and maintains his gun is what it really comes down to. I have heard and seen some people shoot over 25k rounds through their Sigs without a crack or ay kind of problems. Sig frame failures are not a factual dilemma for all Sigs, but only for a few people who happen to have experienced it. I wonder what kind of rounds they also used? And how they sue or treat their guns. Maybe they used a +p ammo on their certain Sig when they recommend not to. I know some people who don't even clean their guns and then complain about their guns performance. And for accuracy, the Sig usually outshoots its owner and so...I probably think that the gun was fine, while the owner was another story.
 
To Tamara

(assuming you purchased used guns; if new, more like $2k) on guns you've said you wouldn't use for wheel chocks. Must be nice to throw that money around
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First of all the wheel chock statement was yours not mine but now that you mention it , it is not far from the truth.

And yes I do throw money around , I love doing it because you cannot take it with you when you go. Also by buying and testing these weapons I cut through all the bull crap that is written about them and I find out how really good or bad they are. Machines have always facinated me and I cannot buy all of them fast enough. Last time I checked it was a free country here so I can spend my money as i wish.

I am also well read. You Tamara were not even aware that there were more than one variation of the Glock magazine and did not know why there was. And you are still claiming that it is impossible for the early style Glock magazines to fly apart on impact with the pavement even after you were educated by me as to why these new magazines were developed by Glock.

The most bizarre statement you ever made was when you claimed that my 1911 functioned flawlessly with defective reloads because the gun itself was defective with bad headspace but by the same token the Glocks which failed the test did so because they were perfect mechanical creations. " Wow "what kind of cold medicine have you been taking lately.

You asked me silly questions now I ask you some questions that are not so rediculous.

And by the way over 600 people in one day were interested in reading about my test of over 20 handguns but you sure froze the post in a hurry when it did not agree with your philosophy. W.R.
 
To R13

I wonder what kind of rounds they also used? And how they sue or treat their guns. Maybe they used a +p ammo on their certain Sig
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Sir I respect your viewpoint and a lot of what you say is perfectly true.

In answer to your question. The Frame failures that I was speaking of did not happen with civilians. These Sigs (as reported in the media) were used and owned by a Goverment agency I believe it was either the FBI or ATF. I do not recall which one because I read this at least 3 or 4 years ago.

My point is that if the Sig did not last with issue commercial or government ammo then it certainly does prove that this gun is far from the durable gun that many people have been led to believe. None of this info is my own. I simply report to you what I have read and what common sense conclusions any normal person would draw from it.

Lets face it the 1911 was issued both commercial and government ammo and has never had the catastrophic failures that some of the newer issued pistols have had. This is historical fact. I did not invent the story of Gov't Beretta's blowing up or Beretta's blowing up in civilian hands or Sig's suffering frame failures. This has all been published in the media.

What I do not understand is the vicious attacts against me personally for being brave enough to report to some of you what I have read since some of you may not have had the chance to read these reports that have been widely published. Do not take my word for any of this. Go out and read the reports and articles yourself. None of this is secret although a lot of people on this forum are trying to make it so by saying none of this ever happened or making a million silly excuses for some of these weapons and their failures.

None of this is a flame against anyone. I simply report what I have read or actually experienced myself. What more would you have me do. W.R.
 
WR,

You Tamara were not even aware that there were more than one variation of the Glock magazine and did not know why there was.
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That is the most ludicrous thing I've heard in a while. Where did you come up with that tidbit? It's silly, as I've owned both NFML and FML Glock mags of all vintages.

And you are still claiming that it is impossible for the early style Glock magazines to fly apart on impact with the pavement even after you were educated by me as to why these new magazines were developed by Glock.
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I went out and tested your theory with a half-dozen or more Glock mags and posted pictures for all to see. Sorry, but factual results seemed to disagree with your thesis. Which Glock mags have square notches in the back and which have round ones? You should know the answer to this easy one.

by the same token the Glocks which failed the test did so because they were perfect mechanical creations.
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I missed the point where I said Glocks were perfect anything. Perhaps you could quote my post and show me.

" Wow "what kind of cold medicine have you been taking lately.
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Ad hominem; always the last refuge of a weak argument.

You asked me silly questions
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None of which you answered, so I'll repeat them:
What caliber and vintage is your P-226?
Does it have a stainless slide?
What color is the boathouse at Hereford?

And by the way over 600 people in one day were interested in reading about my test of over 20 handguns but you sure froze the post in a hurry when it did not agree with your philosophy.
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And most of them responded to it in terms that were derogatory to the original poster (you) and not on the High Road. That is why the thread was closed.
 
WR,

It's not your "philosophy" I disagree with; it's your theses that run directly counter to the facts that I and countless others see every day in the real world.

You say Glocks won't feed ball.

I've owned 9 of the things and had one FTF out of 150,000+ rounds downrange. You are telling me the sky is green when I can look out my window and plainly see that it is blue.

You say 1911's are feed reliable with anything.

I say I shot my Springfield Professional last Tuesday and had one FTF out of 44 rounds with 230gr hardball. (Just means it's a very tight brand-new gun that needs breaking in, but it happened)

You deny that any significant improvements in technology have been made since 1935.

I point out that we're not having this conversation via carrier pigeon.

The ball is in your court.
 
You know, WR, I always thought that your personal anecdotes about Glocks and most other handguns are a bit far-fetched.

(In all fairness, the picture I posted earlier technically does not contradict you, as you claimed the Glock mag fell out of your hand, not slipped out of the mag well. I still doubt that it came apart, as I have not been able to find anyone to be able to reproduce this incident, between two gunsmiths and three Glock owners who owned a combined total of around twenty Glocks. It just ain't so...but feel free to post verifiable evidence to the contrary.)

Now I'll repeat my challenge to you one last time before testing whether the ignore feature on TFL really works. Post proof to your fantastic claims, not just assertions. Throw one of your "defective" P-1 pistols with the chewed-up slide rails on the scanner, or borrow a digital camera. If you can spend hundreds of dollars on guns you don't like, a few hundred bucks for a camera should be no problem. Verify your claims for all to see, instead of just making assertions and calling everyone who doesn't agree with you "mechanically inept" and other niceties. Do not evade questions asked by others when they question the validity of your claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, especially when your claims contradict the experiences of many TFLers who actually own and use the guns of which you speak.

Tamara posted pictures back in the original magazine thread after she threw loaded Glock mags down the stairs to try and make them "spit bullets everywhere". Why can't you post just one piece of verifiable evidence, rather than assertions and evasive answers?
 
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The word I've gotten repeatedly from the Seals I know and work with is how pleased they've been with their 226's. They've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds and the guns keep trucking, as well as being imminently reliable.

I have heard of the occasional frame crack with these weapons in the ridiculously high round count range. You also hear about 1911 frames developing cracks when shot that much. The Sig and the Ruger are two aluminum framed pistols I'd be happy to own.

As to the low quality of stamped parts, I think I'll hold onto the HK P7, P9S and 91 I have, despite nearly 100% stamped parts (slides and frames). These weapons have all been shown to be among the toughest of weapon design, as well as the most accurate and reliable. WR will need to throw away $3500 to show that they're junk as well.

WR's comments end up sounding like the application phrenology to the question of race in the last century. Whatever truth he may know is completely lost in a miasma of largely unfounded prejudice. Bandwith is wasted answering up to his bias.
 
Read all these locking block mishaps and you'll see what I mean in my previous post. No details; no proof. I'm not calling anyone a liar, just take most of this with a grain of salt. I've met people who bad-mouthed Berettas and they've never even handled one! OTOH, the stories above could be true. We'll never know.

WR, take your meds. The effects obviously wore off from the previous pills:rolleyes:
 
To Tamara

If your such an expert on glock mags then tell me why they
spent thousands of dollars to modify them to the new configuration. By the way it was widely publicized why this was done, it again was no big secret to any one well read and following the Glock story.

It was also reported in some of the gun publications that Glock mags did indeed fly apart when droped on pavement. No they dont do it every time just like cars do not misbehave when you take them to a mechanic with a intermintant problem.

I stand by my story 100 per cent. Anyone with any mechanical knowledge can see that the original configuration was not only pure stupidy by Herr Glock but that by merely squeezing the mag the floor plate comes loose. You do not even have to start throwing them down the stares to understand that this original design was inferior to the tried and tested design now used by Glock which by the way was a copy of far older battle tested designs.

Tamara on this one I am 100 per cent right. I know what I saw , I just wish I could have had a video camera with me that day. But of course then you would say that I doctored the film. I am not joking one bit.

I really am surprised that you do not follow your own rules on the forum. You are free to critized my view points but lets grow up and stop attacking me personally by insinuating on each and every thread that everything I say is a lie. This is a childish tactic that people use when they have no evidence of their own to back up their claims.

Since you have just inferred that again I am a liar because I do not own any of these weapons I will give you some info on them.

Sig P226 Purchased on 11-9-89 Serial no. U391xxx

Sig P220 .45 Acp. Purchased on 9-12-88. Serial no. G154xxxG

Glock M17 9mm Purchased 9-8-89 Serial no. GX5xxUS

Glock 19 Purchased 5-20-89 Serial no. ERxxx

Glock 21 45 acp. Purchased on 7-15-91. Ser. No. VD9xxUS

AS far as your statements about the impossibilty of Glocks not feeding hardball why don't you stop personally attacking my integrity and go back and Read GUN WEEK MAGAZINE AND SEE THE ARTICLE ON THE CHICAGO POLICE DEPT. THAT RETURNED 250 OF THE ORGINAL GLOCK .45'S THAT DID NOT WORK. THEN MAYBE YOU WILL STOP SAYING THAT MY OWN GLOCK AND MY FRIENDS GLOCK COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEFECTIVE.

YOU WILL ALSO SEE THAT BY THE DATE OF PURCHASE AND SERIAL NUMBER RANGE OF MY GLOCK .45 THAT I INDEED DID HAVE ONE OF THE FIRST GLOCKS MADE IN .45 ACP.

YOU WILL ALSO SEE THAT THE SERIAL NUMBER RANGES CORRESPOND WITH THE CORRECT YEAR OF MANUFACTURE THATS OF COURSE IF YOU REALLY DO WORK IN A GUN STORE. THAT WOULD BE VERY SIMPLE TO CHECK.

I told one of my friends that works for the Government about all these posts about the Beretta and Glock.

This is some of his comments this morning. He verified that the first 1,500 Italian made Beretta's did not meet U.S. Government Standards or specs.

They did not meet the accuracy requirements or metallurgy specified in the original contract.

The Beretta's were not even tested with Nato ammo but with Italian commercial ammo.

Bertta's experieced failures at 1,500 rounds of ammo in testing.

From some of your comments he said he seriously thought that maybe you are on the payroll of Glock or Beretta or both.

AS you can see by my posts I would be the last man on earth that either Beretta or Glock or any other gun company would ever hire because I trash them all and pull no punches. I have critiqued even the High Power on of all places the High Power forum. Talk about a knock down drag out fight. I only mention this because I evaluate weapons fairly and report on the problems and dislikes that I have with all of them. I am the opposite of most people who never met a gun they did not love. I evaluate them for what they are and I do not sugar coat anything about any brand or any model.

And for all this honesty I am hated because I tell the truth about the tests that I have done and the actual news media releases that I have quoted. W.R.
 
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No, you're disliked because you make sweeping generalizations and attempt to back them up with silly examples.
 
W.R.:"It was also reported in some of the gun publications that Glock mags did indeed fly apart when droped on pavement."

I'm not a "stick with the classics fan" by any means, but I saw Glock mags flying apart on 2-3 cases. All happened on IPSC Standard matches (with stock guns), one happened on grassy ground. The springs went to low earth orbit. :)
 
Wild Romanian

Yes I am sure there are defective glocks out their some 19's had problems and the 21 had magazine problems early on. Do I need to go into the thousands of 1911 problem areas. Every gun company makes a lemon now and again. Sigs frames crack, Beretta's locking blocks break, Hk's break firing pins. 1911's well every thing goes wrong with them. On the other hand all of these hand guns are very good and with the exception of the occaisonal lemon they are all good guns. Except the 1911 it is a good gun if its made by kimber, Para and other top end guns not the auto ordances and cheap clones.
PAT
 
I'm not a "stick with the classics fan" by any means, but I saw Glock mags flying apart on 2-3 cases. All happened on IPSC Standard matches (with stock guns), one happened on grassy ground. The springs went to low earth orbit.
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Ok Tamara what do you say to this post , it is not mine. Is he too a liar because he too has experienced and saw exactly and I mean exactly the same thing that I saw.

I think that you owe me an apology. Of course I will never get it. W.R.
 
Go for the P-226. I started out with the P-226 years ago, and have put thousands of rounds through it in IDPA competiotions and general range shooting. Through all the rounds fired through that pistol no FTF/FTEs. Accuracy is excellent on the P-226. The P-226 also has the decock feature which comes in handy for reholstering at the end of a COF. As far as the Beretta is concerned I have not had alot of experience with the 92, but the Cheetah is a great little pistol. Hope this helps.
 
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