Mike Irwin
Staff
Out of the 9mms, the P7 guns.
My double taps are a lot faster, and a lot more accurate, than if I'm using my Beretta.
My double taps are a lot faster, and a lot more accurate, than if I'm using my Beretta.
Put Them In Order: Fastest Shooting Guns
- Thread starter IanS
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glockorama
New member
CZ-75.
Scott Evans
Staff Alumnus
Would not the length of the trigger pull also be a factor?
The revolver needs the trigger to travel far enough to rotate the cylinder and drop the hammer and then return that distance before the next shot.
This some how in my mind offsets the time necessary for the slide travel in an auto. The length of travel in trigger pull necessary to fire a 1911 is very small when compared to most DA revolvers. As such both weapons seem to have inherent mechanical limiters.
Perhaps what is needed is an auto revolver whereby a gas system rotates the cylinder for the next shot eliminating both the longer trigger pull and slide travel time.
Yep … there we go …
The gas powered auto revolver is my pick.
The revolver needs the trigger to travel far enough to rotate the cylinder and drop the hammer and then return that distance before the next shot.
This some how in my mind offsets the time necessary for the slide travel in an auto. The length of travel in trigger pull necessary to fire a 1911 is very small when compared to most DA revolvers. As such both weapons seem to have inherent mechanical limiters.
Perhaps what is needed is an auto revolver whereby a gas system rotates the cylinder for the next shot eliminating both the longer trigger pull and slide travel time.
Yep … there we go …
The gas powered auto revolver is my pick.
yeah. I vote for that one too. Can we also make this gas operated revolver look cool and paramilitary? I hate how revolvers look. But more seriously...can we get one made that has a capasity more than 6 shots. A bigger speed loader that holds 12-18 rounds. That would be cool. Sure it will be bigger and heavier but it could be made of composite material or something. So what if it looks like a baby grenade launcher. I'm a bad shot - I need all the help I can get.
Any other ideas? I think I need to learn how to use photo shop. Maybe I'll make a picture of this handgun and post it
Any other ideas? I think I need to learn how to use photo shop. Maybe I'll make a picture of this handgun and post it
CastleBravo
New member
I actually got to handle a friend's Webley-Fosbury (sp?) automatic revolver... I almost fainted dead away when I saw him whip that sucker out. 
Neat piece of work, his was obviously extremely well-made. Of course, a completely goofy and impractical idea.
Personal unscientific opinion, I'd have to put it something like this:
9x19mm... SIG P210. Very short SA trigger. Super-tight, super-smooth. Even considering it is a heavy full-sized 9mm the recoil and muzzle flip seem like practically nill to me. So easy to shoot accurately that I couldn't believe it. WAY better than a HK P7M8 in terms of speed with accuracy IMHO. P7M8 is not bad by any stretch, but feels kind of "flippy" to me.
.45 ACP... probably a 1911 with a good trigger and beavertail for a high grip.
10mm... easy, a Bren Ten. Something about the way it is set up causes it to have hardly ANY muzzle flip, all the recoil goes straight back. My Delta Elite is nice to shoot and more accurate (thanks to a Bar-Sto barrel) but side-by-side there is no contest for speed.
Neat piece of work, his was obviously extremely well-made. Of course, a completely goofy and impractical idea.
Personal unscientific opinion, I'd have to put it something like this:
9x19mm... SIG P210. Very short SA trigger. Super-tight, super-smooth. Even considering it is a heavy full-sized 9mm the recoil and muzzle flip seem like practically nill to me. So easy to shoot accurately that I couldn't believe it. WAY better than a HK P7M8 in terms of speed with accuracy IMHO. P7M8 is not bad by any stretch, but feels kind of "flippy" to me.
.45 ACP... probably a 1911 with a good trigger and beavertail for a high grip.
10mm... easy, a Bren Ten. Something about the way it is set up causes it to have hardly ANY muzzle flip, all the recoil goes straight back. My Delta Elite is nice to shoot and more accurate (thanks to a Bar-Sto barrel) but side-by-side there is no contest for speed.
Ruben Nasser
New member
"Miculek, known as the world's fasted revolver shooter, used a S&W Performance Center Model 627 V-Comp revolver to establish a world shooting record of eight shots on one target in 1.00 seconds", "The clock started on the first shot and stopped on the last and the time was one second, said Ken Jorgensen, Smith & Wesson shooting sports coordinator and director of public & media relations. "This had been a goal of Jerry's for several years and although it took several attempts he accomplished what he set out to do." I trust this remarkable feat more than Ed McGivern's simply because is it much better documented, with good timers.
As Handy has explained, a normal pistol firing full auto wil have a rate of 850 to 1200 RPM, which means that the time for each cycle is 0.07 to 0.05 seconds. Of course, you'll have to take into accout trigger time, but a finely tuned 1911 trigger won't slow down this times, and it is MUCH easier to handle than the long DA trigger.
Now, 1.0 / 7 = 0.143 seconds for each shot (remember, the clock started on the first shot and stopped on the last).
Probably a number of top IPSC shooters will meet (or beat) this with a little practice and a properly set 1911 style pistol. More important, a less gifted shooter will find the 1911 pistol much faster.
As Handy has explained, a normal pistol firing full auto wil have a rate of 850 to 1200 RPM, which means that the time for each cycle is 0.07 to 0.05 seconds. Of course, you'll have to take into accout trigger time, but a finely tuned 1911 trigger won't slow down this times, and it is MUCH easier to handle than the long DA trigger.
Now, 1.0 / 7 = 0.143 seconds for each shot (remember, the clock started on the first shot and stopped on the last).
Probably a number of top IPSC shooters will meet (or beat) this with a little practice and a properly set 1911 style pistol. More important, a less gifted shooter will find the 1911 pistol much faster.
All of the anecdotal reports are interesting, but don't really answer the question.
To get sufficient data would probably require looking at IPSC or IDPA scores. In both of these sports, the 1911 style is king. But this only answers the question of "Which pistol, ON AVERAGE, is the best for making fast acurate shots on multiple targets from a variety of positions?"
In the hands of a shooter of the caliber of Jerry, a revolver. But he is not the average shooter. While he is amazing, when using a revolver he is not able to consistently beat the 1911 shooters (in IPSC type competition).
To get sufficient data would probably require looking at IPSC or IDPA scores. In both of these sports, the 1911 style is king. But this only answers the question of "Which pistol, ON AVERAGE, is the best for making fast acurate shots on multiple targets from a variety of positions?"
In the hands of a shooter of the caliber of Jerry, a revolver. But he is not the average shooter. While he is amazing, when using a revolver he is not able to consistently beat the 1911 shooters (in IPSC type competition).
Ruben Nasser
New member
I've got this great info from Brian Enos:
"Way back when I was sponsored by S&W, I twice shot 10 shot bill drills at 7 yds with all A's on an IPSC target. Unfortunately, I can't remember, or did not record, what the draw time was, but I'd bet it was right around .90. This would average about .0122 breaks, and I seem to remember that being the case. It was, however, extremely difficult - I never could repeat it or do it with another gun. The S&W I used had an amazing trigger with much less overall movement than a 1911 style trigger. But in answer to your question, I think, yes, a top flight IPSC shooter should
be able to do this with his semi-auto.
What makes it so difficult with the auto is the fact that you have to wait for the slide to close before pulling the trigger. This necessary timing is critical because, because in essence, you have to learn to "wait" to pull the trigger. One trigger movement at the wrong time and the string is done with. When I shot the runs mentioned, it seemed as if the gun was "shooting itself"; it was just floating there and as the slide closed, that action initiated my trigger finger to hit the trigger.
It's a really difficult state for most (especially myself) to execute
because of the usual straining and struggling going on when attempting to do something at that speed.
The "advantage" of the revolver, and one Miculek has capitalized on through serious training, is that you don't have to "wait" to move the trigger in either direction. So the only limitation is in how much you are willing to practice snapping that thing."
"Way back when I was sponsored by S&W, I twice shot 10 shot bill drills at 7 yds with all A's on an IPSC target. Unfortunately, I can't remember, or did not record, what the draw time was, but I'd bet it was right around .90. This would average about .0122 breaks, and I seem to remember that being the case. It was, however, extremely difficult - I never could repeat it or do it with another gun. The S&W I used had an amazing trigger with much less overall movement than a 1911 style trigger. But in answer to your question, I think, yes, a top flight IPSC shooter should
be able to do this with his semi-auto.
What makes it so difficult with the auto is the fact that you have to wait for the slide to close before pulling the trigger. This necessary timing is critical because, because in essence, you have to learn to "wait" to pull the trigger. One trigger movement at the wrong time and the string is done with. When I shot the runs mentioned, it seemed as if the gun was "shooting itself"; it was just floating there and as the slide closed, that action initiated my trigger finger to hit the trigger.
It's a really difficult state for most (especially myself) to execute
because of the usual straining and struggling going on when attempting to do something at that speed.
The "advantage" of the revolver, and one Miculek has capitalized on through serious training, is that you don't have to "wait" to move the trigger in either direction. So the only limitation is in how much you are willing to practice snapping that thing."
I RO a lot of matches around these parts, and indulge my own curiosity with the timer between "hot dawg" shooters.
A fast GrandMaster IPSC draw is around .7 seconds. Good splits on a target (time between the first and second A hit) are .10 to .11
I've seen some .06 splits, but even the GM's can't do that all the time.
All with 1911 types, usually STI.
I've RO'ed Bud Bond (the revolver shooter who beat Jerry at the American Handgunner in the "top revolver" shootoff), and his were .12-.13. Reloads killed him at the Texas State Limited, but boy, was he fun to watch. I want a moon-clip revolver now
For the record, as a cheezy B shooter, my draw is 1.1, and I average .13 splits. My time between targets is...lethargic, to say the least, hence my crappy classification...but I'm working on it Bill Drills are fun, my best is 1.7, average 1.9.
If other weapons platforms were faster than the STI/1911 type, then the IPSC geeks would be using them. They will do ANYTHING to go faster, and the 1911 is the king of the heap. I've RO'ed Ted Bonnett (CZ-USA's shooter, and a heck of a nice guy), and he is the only guy I've seen that shot some "other" type of pistol even close to that fast...and head to head with 1911's in the hands of equally amazing shooters, he was shut down at the Handgunner.
Glocks, P7, 92SF, yeah whatever. Get a timer and shoot...see what your splits actually are. "Oh, I shot so fast" means nothing. Numbers mean something. If you can't provide a split, then it is meaningless.
But if you are not hitting your A-zone, it is even more meaningless. Speed without accuracy does no good :barf:
Alex
PS The latest edition of Front Sight had an interesting article on shotguns...seems as if the Benelli won't cycle faster than .07. Empirical data knocked my favorite shotgun off the top of the heap in favor of the new Winchester
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A fast GrandMaster IPSC draw is around .7 seconds. Good splits on a target (time between the first and second A hit) are .10 to .11
I've seen some .06 splits, but even the GM's can't do that all the time.
All with 1911 types, usually STI.
I've RO'ed Bud Bond (the revolver shooter who beat Jerry at the American Handgunner in the "top revolver" shootoff), and his were .12-.13. Reloads killed him at the Texas State Limited, but boy, was he fun to watch. I want a moon-clip revolver now
For the record, as a cheezy B shooter, my draw is 1.1, and I average .13 splits. My time between targets is...lethargic, to say the least, hence my crappy classification...but I'm working on it
Bill Drills are fun, my best is 1.7, average 1.9.If other weapons platforms were faster than the STI/1911 type, then the IPSC geeks would be using them. They will do ANYTHING to go faster, and the 1911 is the king of the heap. I've RO'ed Ted Bonnett (CZ-USA's shooter, and a heck of a nice guy), and he is the only guy I've seen that shot some "other" type of pistol even close to that fast...and head to head with 1911's in the hands of equally amazing shooters, he was shut down at the Handgunner.
Glocks, P7, 92SF, yeah whatever. Get a timer and shoot...see what your splits actually are. "Oh, I shot so fast" means nothing. Numbers mean something. If you can't provide a split, then it is meaningless.
But if you are not hitting your A-zone, it is even more meaningless. Speed without accuracy does no good :barf:
Alex
PS The latest edition of Front Sight had an interesting article on shotguns...seems as if the Benelli won't cycle faster than .07. Empirical data knocked my favorite shotgun off the top of the heap in favor of the new Winchester
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Scott Evans
Staff Alumnus
Of course there is always the question of how fast is fast enough to be tactically sound? In the realm of practical performance who cares which is fastest so long as you have one that is fast enough to be adequate to the task? All that has me wondering where the line is determining which guns are too slow and which are not in a situation of actual deployment?
Specialized Evolution...
The 1911-derived master-blaster squirtguns that dominate the stratospheric reaches of IPSC competition have a lot in common with the Keith Black Hemis that own Top Fuel drag racing: Both are extremely specialized forms of a standard product that have evolved over time to fit a specialized niche so well that there's no point in even showing up with something else. Both have also evolved to the point that they bear little to no resemblance to their progenitors. The typical high-capacity, electronic-sighted, multiport compensated, polymer-framed, .38 Super racegun bears as little resemblance to John Browning's Model 1911 as a blown and injected, all-aluminum, 500-cubic inch, nitromethane-burning Keith Black Hemi does to the cast-iron lump that powered passenger cars in the 'sixties.
For what they are designed to do, there's nothing better.
In the real world of stock vehicles and stock guns, there are many that equal, and some that exceed their performance. In putting rounds on target fast, I'd give my G23C and P7M8 a better than even chance against my steel-framed, single-stack, .45 caliber carry 1911's. All have low bore axes and fast-reset triggers, and the Glock and HK have potentially less muzzle flip, with proper load selection. Also, guns that don't have a manual safety to disengage have the potential to be faster on the draw for someone who hasn't ingrained the movement necessary to disengage a 1911's thumb safety into their muscle-memory.
Just some food for thought.
The 1911-derived master-blaster squirtguns that dominate the stratospheric reaches of IPSC competition have a lot in common with the Keith Black Hemis that own Top Fuel drag racing: Both are extremely specialized forms of a standard product that have evolved over time to fit a specialized niche so well that there's no point in even showing up with something else. Both have also evolved to the point that they bear little to no resemblance to their progenitors. The typical high-capacity, electronic-sighted, multiport compensated, polymer-framed, .38 Super racegun bears as little resemblance to John Browning's Model 1911 as a blown and injected, all-aluminum, 500-cubic inch, nitromethane-burning Keith Black Hemi does to the cast-iron lump that powered passenger cars in the 'sixties.
For what they are designed to do, there's nothing better.
In the real world of stock vehicles and stock guns, there are many that equal, and some that exceed their performance. In putting rounds on target fast, I'd give my G23C and P7M8 a better than even chance against my steel-framed, single-stack, .45 caliber carry 1911's. All have low bore axes and fast-reset triggers, and the Glock and HK have potentially less muzzle flip, with proper load selection. Also, guns that don't have a manual safety to disengage have the potential to be faster on the draw for someone who hasn't ingrained the movement necessary to disengage a 1911's thumb safety into their muscle-memory.
Just some food for thought.
I wasn't talking Open guns 
The last match I quoted times from was the Texas State Limited. No red dot sights, no compensators, no gyro-stabilized laser-guided death blaster...just "Limited" pistols (and a few revolvers). Most in .40 with a lot of 9 and .45 ACP.
My IPSC "coach"'s 9mm Limited STI regularly runs a thousand rounds between malfuctions...without cleaning. His open guns run the same.
Unreliable is not acceptable.
Inaccurate is not acceptable.
My Limited gun is a Para P14 with a fiber front sight and a Bo-Mar rear, oversized levers, fat mag well, ramped barrel. My concealed carry pistol is my other P14, with Tritium sights, 'trimmed' levers, and a blended weld-on mag well. Both are custom jobs, sure, buty they are not compensated raceguns.
The Bo-Mar gun is faster on the reloads, but they both shoot the same. I'll usually get 600-700 rounds (two practice sessions) between cleanings with no malfunctions
Yeah, it is a pretty big carry gun. Then again, I'm a big fat guy (6'3" 210lbs) and could probably hide a Deuce in a SOB holster :b
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The last match I quoted times from was the Texas State Limited. No red dot sights, no compensators, no gyro-stabilized laser-guided death blaster...just "Limited" pistols (and a few revolvers). Most in .40 with a lot of 9 and .45 ACP.
My IPSC "coach"'s 9mm Limited STI regularly runs a thousand rounds between malfuctions...without cleaning. His open guns run the same.
Unreliable is not acceptable.
Inaccurate is not acceptable.
My Limited gun is a Para P14 with a fiber front sight and a Bo-Mar rear, oversized levers, fat mag well, ramped barrel. My concealed carry pistol is my other P14, with Tritium sights, 'trimmed' levers, and a blended weld-on mag well. Both are custom jobs, sure, buty they are not compensated raceguns.
The Bo-Mar gun is faster on the reloads, but they both shoot the same. I'll usually get 600-700 rounds (two practice sessions) between cleanings with no malfunctions
Yeah, it is a pretty big carry gun. Then again, I'm a big fat guy (6'3" 210lbs) and could probably hide a Deuce in a SOB holster :b
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