Pros and Cons of Tokarev in 7.62x25

Z

Z.A

Inactive
Hi

I am a newbie who is looking for a budget semi auto. I went to an arms store here (Karachi, Pakistan) yesterday and the guy showed me a pistol saying "its a chinese 30 bore semi auto, made by NORINCO, holds 7 rounds".

I asked him the exact name of this caliber and he said ...its just called 30 bore pistol.

I did some online searching for "30 bore pistol" but only found it (being mentioned/not described) on some news websites. I want to know whats the origin/nomenclature/application/ballistics of this caliber.
 
I think that was a Tokarev clone in 7.62x25mm. .30 = 7.62 (usually) The origin of that cartridge is the 7.63x25mm Mauser. But the 7.62 Tokarev is quite a bit more powerful. You could use a 7.63 in a Tokarev, but not the other way around. And watch out for Czech 7.62x25 ammo. As far as I know it's loaded even hotter, for SMGs. So don't use it in a pistol.

Was it something like this?

 
A "30 bore semi auto" would be a rare bird, indeed. In this context, the number in front of the word 'bore' properly indicates the number of pure lead balls of muzzle diameter required to make up a pound. That would make a 30 bore handgun roughly a .54 caliber.

What they really mean is .30 caliber. ;)

Which would be a 173 bore pistol if anyone cares...
 
yes Silvanus, it's almost exactly like the one you showed. Also, there was "NORINCO" marked on the side of the muzzle. the trigger was different too.

Is it an obsolete caliber? Should i go for this pistol?

I am gonna use it for personal protection (concealed carry).
 
In the US there is plenty of surplus imported ammunition around for that gun. I don't know about where you are, though. It was a common caliber in areas of Soviet influence and there are apparently large stores of surplus ammunition floating around for that. Commercial ammunition for it is not as common however. I believe there may not be any hollow point or soft point ammunition available as it was pretty much a military proposition. I would buy plenty of spare ammunition for it just in case the supplies dry up. IT is not as popular as say, the 9MM pistol caliber so something in that caliber could be easier to supply with ammo in the future. The Chinese did make some of those pistols in 9MM cal. I think they just switched out the barrels. Sometimes I see the 9MM barrels for sale in the US so that it can be converted. I think nothing else needs to be changed, but I did own one once, in the 9MM cal. The sights were left over from the 30 cal. version so it did not shoot to point of aim due to the sights being regulated for 30 cal.
 
It's not a quality gun, expect bad/heavy trigger (did you try it?) and mediocre accuracy...7 rounds is not a lot as well.

7.62x25 isn't the best caliber for SD (small bullet diameter) it's not as powerful as some people think - 90-80gr bullet at 1300-1500fps; 9mm can do that with lighter bullets! Russians ditched it for 9mm Makarov 40-50 years ago..


What other options do you have? Norinco also makes 1911, CZ, and Sig copies as well (latter isn't so durable but the first two are OK) in 9mm .40 and .45 any of them would be better IMO...But 7.62x25 is better against armored targets.
 
Z.A, I see you're in Pakistan...SPECIAL WARNING. IT MIGHT BE FAKE. I've recently watched a video in which tribesmen out in the remote regions of Pakistan were making fake Tokarevs out of potmetal in a tribal village, and even using a Norinco stamping die on them to give them a Norinco marking. If that's the case, DO NOT BUY IT, there's a good chance the high-pressure cartridge could blow it up in your hand! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Here's the video. Watch to the point where there's a guy making one of those pistols. He just made it, but it's a "Norinco"! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9xf62PKC5M Go to 4:00 in the video. Right before it shows how they're doing the forging and grinding. Definitely not a factory with quality control.

If it were a real Norinco

Pros:

1. Caliber has excellent penetration of winter clothing.
2. Good quality...if it's Russian or Polish. The Norinco is apparently cheaper in quality.
3. Slender design, fits 1911 holsters
4. Simple Browning action

Cons:

1. Caliber can OVERpenetrate, endangering bystanders
2. Excessive muzzleflash can ruin nightvision
3. Can ONLY Israeli-carry. Do not EVER carry with a round in the chamber. Not designed for it, not safe.
4. Not drop-safe. Drop it with a round chambered, even with the hammer down, and it'll probably fire.
5. Miniscule sights.
6. The Norinco copy is lesser grade steel than an original Tok. Won't last as long.

I have two Tokarevs, a 1946 Soviet and a 1952 Polish. I would never consider carrying any CCW, they're range toys, or a slender, concealable backup in severe civil disorder as they will penetrate thick clothing or a BG's level II vest. It might not be bad for you, there, since jihadis do wear vests!

I can't stress enough to NOT EVER carry one chambered, either. Tokarev never designed it for that, and I would not trust the import-required "safety" for cocked-and-locked for even a second.

In my opinion, it can be carried, yes, and it's far more suited to that than the complicated and chunky CZ-52, which is only a range toy and curiousity. The Tokarev is still a combat pistol that can be used as such. But it can only be carried without a round in the chamber, and the round can easily overpenetrate, plus the flash will night-blind you. So it's not ideal.
 
I had almost started imagining myself with a Tok tucked in my jeans :confused: .oh....ok...... time to reassess :cool: The only reason i got interested in 7.62x25 Tokarev (Norinco Copy) was its price .. My budget is 400USD and this is one semi-auto that fits it. Other pistols in the market here include Taurus PT24/7,PT92/111/99/915, Chinese Sig Sauer P228/226,Chinese NZ75,N9/NP42 and Daewoo DP51....and all these 9mms are priced above 650USD. I guess i need to consider buying a used quality gun. The store guy told me he has a used Beretta Cheetah for 400USD.What are the issues in buying a used pistol? what should i look for ? and ..... does it make sense?
 
Um..there is no Chinese SIG. That's an unlicensed copy, and likely poorly made. SIGs are made in two places...Germany, and Exeter, NH, United States.

If the Taurus 24/7s are real ones, which is more likely, since they're polymer frame and harder to fake, they're good. Just make sure they're actually from Brazil.

Daewoo is good, too. Korean military carry the DP-51.
 
Chinese Sig Sauer P228/226,Chinese NZ75,N9/NP42
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They're also made by Norinco I handled one (NP-22; P226 copy)...it's not too bad but Iif you want to shoot it a lot don't buy one. many peopel have reported frame rails cracking after few thouthand rounds. Norinco CZ and 1911 coppies are more durable...

Taurus 24/7 and esp. PT92 would be a good choice!


Berettas are great guns, although Cheetah is only .380auto/9mm kurz (spl?) which is less powerful than 9mm Lugrer/9x19/9mm Para (<all same caliber) but still should be OK... If the cheetah is a .22 don't buy it for SD...
 
Being where you are, I'd say a larger caliber, not .380 for sure. Jihadist nuts have been known to get hopped up on heroin before going on their missions, and they wouldn't even notice being hit by that. You'd want something that could put someone down from sufficient damage even if they don't feel it.
 
Along the lines of whats already been mentioned, can you get a reasonable revolver??? It might not have the capacity of the "other" autos, but capacity is close to the Norico you 1st looked at, & you can likely get a more powerful cartridge... ( I'm guessing you're not finding the 40's or 45's there, as the short 9's are popular in that part of the world ), along with a simpler design, with likely better reliability
 
They're also made by Norinco
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there is no Chinese SIG. That's an unlicensed copy
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An unlicensed copy does not have the right to bear the original manufacturer's name. It may be a Norinco that resembles a SIG, but it isn't properly a SIG unless it is made by SIG or is a licensed copy.
 
You're better off with a Makarov IMO.
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I don't agree. If someone is hopped up on heroin, they might not notice being hit with 9x18.

An unlicensed copy does not have the right to bear the original manufacturer's name. It may be a Norinco that resembles a SIG, but it isn't properly a SIG unless it is made by SIG or is a licensed copy.
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The tribes out in the wilds of Pakistan have been making unlicensed copies of Norinco unlicensed copies, which is just sort of ironic...

So it wouldn't at all surprise me to see that the copies of copies have been stamped with both a fake Norinco rollmark and a fake SIG rollmark, too.

This is why I'm recommending a complex polymer frame like the Taurus 24/7. Metal frames and slides can be cast by primitive methods and then polished down by hand, but a high-tech polymer frame is beyond the capabilities of the counterfeit makers out in those villages. You can tell cheap cast resin from polymer at one glance, and it'd be nearly impossible to simply cast copies of the overmolded structure of those frames.
 
The Daewoo DP51 and Taurus 9mms are the only ones I would consider for self defence. (if they are not fake of course) I've heard only good things about the Daewoo handguns. I think one of our members likes them a lot. Magyar I think...
 
The DP51 is a S&W derivative with a unique "fast action trigger". When cocked, pushing the hammer forward will put it down, but touching the trigger will snap it back to a full cock, letting the first shot be SA from a DA carry. They'll take S&W 59 mags, as well.

Some of the makers of new Hi-power clones have been adapting the design now, it seems.
 
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