Proper Reloading Method

[Shawn Dodson]

kraigwy writes:

The slide release is just that, a slide release, its put on a pistol to released the slide...

Technically, it's a slide LOCK.

What does the lever do? It locks the slide open. That's its function.

You cannot lock the slide open on a pistol that doesn't have a slide lock. (My Beretta Tomcat doesn't have a slide lock.)

Does it make sense to engage a slide RELEASE to lock the slide open?

Cheers!

 

[Frank Ettin]

And many instructors will agree that manipulation of the gun in your strong hand to reach the slide release is one thing you don't want to do. ....

But that's not how it's done. That is most definitely not how the slide lock is used to release the slide. See my post#8:

...it's a very easy and quick action for me to hit the slide stop with my weak hand thumb, after inserting the magazine with my weak hand, as it takes its grip over my strong hand...

Admittedly this works best for a right handed shooter. Basically, the operator retains his firing grip with the strong hand. The operator inserts and seats the magazine with the weak hand. The operator then moves the weak hand to wrap around the strong hand, and as he does so, he hits the slide stop with the thumb of the weak hand as the gun is moved either on target or into the desired ready position, as the situation requires.

As I mentioned previously, I was taught this technique at Gunsite in 2001. It works particularly well with a 1911. It may work less well with some other designs or if one uses different guns with the slide stop in different places. In such cases, the sling shot may be a better idea. The sling shot may also be a better idea for a left handed shooter, although I've seen some lefties manipulate the slide stop very well with their trigger fingers.

 

[Nnobby45]

Technically, it's a slide LOCK.

More than just technically. It is in fact the slide stop, and I have no parts on my pistols called "slide release". The slide can be released by using the slide stop or by the manual method, though we shouldn't make a federal case out of calling a part by what it does half the time instead of what it's listed as.

If I shoot the magazine dry I treat the condition as a "stoppage" and I perform Tap, Roll & Rack ......

Is that how you really train to reload with your life on the line?

You tap, then attempt to rack as you roll the pistol to lose the smoke stack, but can't because the magazine is already racked (in lock back). Then, after it won't release, you realize the mag's empty, and that you need to reload the pistol. So you release the magazine and do a normal reload.

Interesting-- where'd you learn such a doctrine? What advantage does it have over the normal reload that would have your pistol recharged in half the time?

I don't understand it, but that doesn't mean you don't have a reason for doing it that way.

 

[csmsss]

There are merits to both methods. In competition (idpa) where speed is paramount, as if it didn’t matter in self defense, using the slide release is the best method. This assumes that your pistol is not “tuned” to drop the slide when the magazine is seated.

I have seen on more than one occasion at the range folks whose 1911's had this "feature" - who in attempting to load the next magazine, did not do so with sufficient authority. The outcome of this was a fully loaded magazine on the ground, and a closed slide on an empty chamber - not exactly an optimal tactical situation.

 

[David Armstrong]

I use the same technique to LOAD, RELOAD and CLEAR STOPPAGES. The actions are all tied together into an integrated technique.

That's a good point, and when I was teaching this stuff regularly that is what I taught for the same reason. No analysis, no figuring out what has happened, if the gun doesn't go bang you do the same thing no matter what the reason.

That is most definitely not how the slide lock is used to release the slide. See my post#8:

That is how the slide lock is used to release the slide, according to many instructors, and was the recommended method from Gunsight for a long time. In fact, it may be falling out of favor now, but the ".45 flip" was a regular part of instruction with autos for a long time.

 

[Rob Pincus]

In some cases, the malfunction response idea makes a lot of sense, most people will learn to recognize the slide locking back. Recognition is a skill developed through exposure (ie- back to previous post, if you always top your gun off administratively (tac-reload, etc) and count rounds, you will not reliably develop an ability to recognize slide lock and respond efficiently to it.) over time. Of course, if you recognize slide lock and "know" that you need to reload, tapping and racking first would be significantly inefficient. Some new students integrate these steps in order to "not miss" a malfunction and see it as ultimately more consistent, which it would be in a technical sense. In the hierarchy of value, we put efficiency over consistency when there is such a huge difference at a critical time (slide lock in the middle of a fight).


If you don't recognize slide lock and do pull the trigger on a slide locked gun, the proper response should be to Tap-Rack... recognizing on the rack portion that the slide is already open should send you to the next automated response: reload.
Through a similar non-diagnostic methodology, if the problem was actually a double-feed, recognizing that the magazine did not drop free should send you to a Rip (or lock/remove) and clear response followed by a slide forward reload which would necessitate a firmly gripped (one reason for our preference for overhand vs. slingshot) slide being pulled fully reward and released to get the gun back into action.

That entire process should be (and can be) trained to the point where you never have to look at the gun or diagnose what is going on... simply following a pattern of recognized stimulus-response should solve everything from a slide rock reload through various malfunctions.

The non-diagnostic linear malfunction drill concept is discussed in more detail here.

-RJP

 

[sargenv]

I've found with my Sig 229 and with various Glocks that if you go to slide lock, then recharge the magazine with some "oomph!" it will close the slide for you on a fresh round without any need for you to slingshot or touch the slide release. In those cases well.. you'd just keep shooting. You may not have that advantage on all guns though.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

As I mentioned previously, I was taught this technique at Gunsite in 2001. It works particularly well with a 1911. It may work less well with some other designs or if one uses different guns with the slide stop in different places. In such cases, the sling shot may be a better idea. The sling shot may also be a better idea for a left handed shooter, although I've seen some lefties manipulate the slide stop very well with their trigger fingers.

I see what you're saying now. My apologies for not accurately comprehending your statement.

However, my opinion still stands on using the slide stop/release to chamber a round...especially a 1911. One of many theories of the "first round flyer" is because the first round isn't chambered with full force potential of the spring. If speed is needed and the assailant is in physical contact per se, I can see getting the gun ready faster is of priority. Maybe that's a good time to use the slide stop lever.

But for most other situations I think cycling the slide the way it is designed during firing operation is the best way to go. Every reasonable step taken to assure a malfuntion will not occur is high on my list.

If you voluntarily state where your training has come, I will gladly state mine.

Randy Cain. He's one of the early disciples of Gunsite. Jeff Cooper, Louis Awerbuck, Steve Tarani, and many others taught him well. He's since moved on to instruct on his own. He took their teachings and formed his own methods of instruction as well to present to his students.

As far as Gunsite: I see it's been since 2001 you were there. They are a fantastic instruction facility. But, they have their flaws just like most other courses and have gone through some changes since their inception.

I think we've come to an agreement to disagree. I think we both understand that both practices are necessary, but one favors the other and vice versa. If this is the worst disagreement that fellow gunowners come across I will gladly accept that.

I'm sure that your and other instructors are only teaching what you truly believe in good faith. Of all the items learned in Randy Cain's courses, his second most important thought on firearms instruction was this: "This is what I was taught in the past. This is what works for me now. Take the techniques that you learn from me and others and do what works best for YOU".

And even if you don't know Randy, you know what his most important thought of instruction is...

 

[Nnobby45]

I've found with my Sig 229 and with various Glocks that if you go to slide lock, then recharge the magazine with some "oomph!" it will close the slide for you on a fresh round without any need for you to slingshot or touch the slide release. In those cases well.. you'd just keep shooting. You may not have that advantage on all guns though.

I've always associated that with weak mag. springs that prevent the follower from properly locking back the slide. My P229 has done it occasionally, but I always considered it a minor malfunction. I've had it happen more with 1911's.

If it did it all the time, it may be a useful feature on speed loads, but a bit hazardous on "administrative" loads. Not knowing what to expect isn't a feature I'd be compfy with.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If you voluntarily state where your training has come, I will gladly state mine...

I'd be happy to:

[1] Bennie Cooley (Crises Resolution Training -- http://www.benniecooley.com/)

[2] Gunsite (handgun in 2001 and rifle in 2006)

[3] Advanced Weapons and Tactics (Walt Marshall -- http://www.awt-co.com/)

[4] Louis Awerbuck

[5] Massad Ayoob (BTW he also teaches using the slide stop)

In addition, I've had training with one of our local NRA Training Counselors and have been certified to teach NRA Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home and Shotgun.

In any case, I can agree with the statement of Randy Cain's you quoted. And both Louis Awerbuck and Mas Ayoob have said similar things. In many cases, there are alternate ways to accomplish your purpose. Some may have different advantages or disadvantages, but each of us will need to decide which works best for him. (Of course, even though we will each have our preferred techniques, I don't think its a bad thing to learn and know how to do them all.)

And as I said before, I see the merits of the sling shot; and I also appreciate that it can be the best choice for many people under various circumstances. So I really have not quarrel with you at all.

...I always considered it a minor malfunction. ...it may be a useful feature on speed loads, but a bit hazardous on "administrative" loads. Not knowing what to expect isn't a feature I'd be compfy with.

I agree. I consider it (the slide just closing by itself when a magazine is seated with authority) a malfunction.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Nnobby45 writes:

Is that how you really train to reload with your life on the line?

You tap, then attempt to rack as you roll the pistol to lose the smoke stack, but can't because the magazine is already racked (in lock back). Then, after it won't release, you realize the mag's empty, and that you need to reload the pistol. So you release the magazine and do a normal reload.

Interesting-- where'd you learn such a doctrine? What advantage does it have over the normal reload that would have your pistol recharged in half the time?

Yes. Anytime I press the trigger and the pistol doesn't fire I immediately perform Tap, Roll & Rack. I don't examine the pistol in attempt to diagnose the problem.

The problem can be more than a simple failure to eject (smoke stake). I can have a defective cartridge, an unseated magazine in which the slide cycles but no round is chambered, a depleted magazine, a failure to extract (doublefeed), etc. For any of these problems the immediate action is the same: Tap, Roll & Rack

If the pistol doesn't fire when I press the trigger again, I Reload.

I've trained until these are conditioned immediate actions. I can perform them very quickly. I can perform them in total darkness because I don't need to look at my pistol to diagnose the problem. I can progress through my immediate actions, clear a doublefeed and have the pistol running in less than 8 seconds - blindfolded.

Also I don't make any effort to detect that the slide is out of battery when I Rack. If Tap, Roll & Rack doesn't get the gun running I immediately progress to Reload. The slide can be out of battery due to a failure to extract (double feed), a depleted magazine, an improper grip that inadvertantly engaged the slide lock (possibly as a result of an injury or a wet pistol), or a failure to eject (stovepipe). If I suffer a stovepipe, and detect that the slide is out of battery, I don't want to assume that my magazine is depleted and perform an unecessary Reload.

Likewise if I train to detect that the slide is out of battery, and then perform such and such technique, I don't want to take it for granted that I'll detect that the slide is out of battery during a gunfight. Unexpected things happen during a gunfight - I know of a couple of dash cam videos of cops who drew their pistol, fired one round and were unable to get the pistol to fire again because they didn't relax their trigger finger to allow the trigger to reset. They stood there pressing and pressing the trigger. Stuff like this doesn't just happen to other people - it could happen to me, therefore I don't want to train for failure.

With combative techniques, reliable, positive manipulation is more important than pure speed. A competitive technique may be faster than a combative technique but its only faster if conditions allow it to be faster. The idea is to use a technique that works everytime - even in worst case conditions.

Simplicity of technique is important too, to minimize your mental load and allow you to focus outward on the danger to keep from being shot/cut/beaten instead of focusing inward on your equipment, which increases your risk.

I learned my combative techniques from Jeff Gonzales, a former Navy SEAL who operates TridentConcepts (www.tridentconcepts.com).

Cheers!

 

[GetYerShells]

In reference to the OP. When I took my CCW course I was taught to rack the slide back after reloading to place another round into battery. My instructor stressed that we do not use the slide release to chamber a new round. I am not sure of his logic behind that but that's what I was taught and that's what I go by. Not saying either way is better, but that's what I learned.

 

[Contrarian12]

Got a Sig. I never have the previously referred to problem of hitting the slide release inadvertently.

LEO Glock armorer told me the Glock factory recommends slingshot. This is due to the fact that polymers have more flexibility than aluminum, titanium, or steel and dampen the effect of the slide moving forwards. So you need to get every little bit of oomph you can from the slide.

This tidbit also correlates with the fact that the greater flexiblity of polymer slides dampens the recoil energy of a fired Glock, so that the Glock is more senstive than most pistols to firmness of grip - in other words, you need a firmer grip with a Glock.

Or any other polymer framed pistol.

And that all makes sense to my mechanical engineer brain. Plus I slept at a holiday inn express a few weeks ago.

Contrarian...

 

[Contrarian12]

Anybody know what the US GI .45 Colt semi-automatic pistol manual says?

 

[Nnobby45]

Sorry to dissagree with your instructor but I also am an instructor. The weapons were designed to be released by the slide release. I have not seen the slide released on any police range unless the officer was doing a weak hand reload simulating an injured strong hand.

Mr. Gaston Glock did not intend for his slide to be released with the slide stop. He'd have designed one easy to operate.

Slide stops aren't in the same place on all guns. The manual release works well for anything, especially under stress.

On the other hand, there are good instructors who teach using the slide stop, but I suspect their students are armed with the same pistol, maybe in a LE environment. Some students may have been taught to use the stop no matter what pistol they're using.

There's no faster way, to load a 1911 than to "speed" load using the slide stop. It seems built for it and it's natural. (though, you're less likley to get a 6 o'clock malfunction {nost dive} with manual release).

Sig's slides can be dropped one handed with strong thumb, since the stop is in the rear, but you compromise your grip doing it.

Try finding the Glock's slide stop under stress. Note that it doesn't release as easily as other slide stops.

As a John Farnum student, I learned the over hand manual release (tactical reload). John doesn't teach gun specific techniques since his students show up with all varieties of pistols and John is a believer in students learning how to operate all manners of different arms.

 

[Striker1]

Interesting conversation (though not a new one). Everytime I hear this I wonder , for those who like the idea that only gross motor skills should be used, if that is so, how can anyone be expected to find the itty bitty magazine release or as someone mentioned earlier, place the fully loaded magazine between the pinky and ring finger while ripping the offending magazine out and manipulating the slide?

I agree Glocks and other pistols with small slide stops may be better operated by the overhand/slingshot method and others (1911) with the slide stop, however, what about weapons like the Beretta M92? Anyone ever seen those placed on safe when "overhanding" the slide? I agree learning "a way" that works with "most" pistols might be a good choice, but it might not work with all.

In the end I think it is wise to know your weapon and become proficient in it's operation.

Shoot safe!

 

[orionengnr]

Good points, all.

Having said that, When I was a LE Firearms instructor I stressed learning to count. Don't let the pistol go dry.
In multi stages of qualification training, I taught, dump the mag and load a fresh one prior too or moving to the next stage.
Yeah I know, here it comes, you're gonna tell me in a stress situation people wont count. Guess what, people react under stress as they train. Habits are hard to break.
You're gonna practice and train with thousands more rounds then you are gonna shoot in a real situation. Develop good habits, you instill good habits for years, practice them for years, then when and if the SHTF, you're gonna go use the habits you developed over the years whether you realize it or not.
You're gonna shoot thousands of rounds, (hopefully), spend hundreds of hours (hopefully) training, LEARN TO COUNT. Its better to dump a mag with a round or two then get caught fumbling to get your slide forward on a fresh mag.

I am not an instructor; I am not an operator, I am not a low drag, high speed guy.

That said, I do believe that as you train, so shall ye fight. Makes perfect sense, although I could be wrong; it's happened before.

When I am at the range, I count every round, whether it's a six-round revolver, a ten round Ruger MkII or a 17 round Glock. Will I do the same under stress? I honestly don't know, but I do believe that the more I practice this habit, the stronger the chance that it will be ingrained.

Likewise, I use the slide release on every semiautomatic pistol I own. Consistent habit patterns will (hopefully) lead to consistent performance under stress, without stopping to wonder which platform is in use or which procedures are required to make it work.

I appreciate the thoughtful exchange of ideas here, and will endeavour to keep an open mind.