dixierifleman
Moderator
akr, do you even think before you write? your just like a dog that likes to hear himself bark.
Project for the home
- Thread starter Twoply
- Start date
dixierifleman
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any time buddy
.351winchester
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Quote:
I've never seen a pro choose a pg shotgun. Anyone else seen one?
The Marshals involved in the Witness Protection program use/used 12.5" 12 gauge 870's. 20" or so OAL. Back in the old days, 12/20 gauge SxS and pump AOWs were THE vehicle defense weapon, and carried by the old school dicks. I believe Doc Holliday walked the streets of Tombstone with a 10 gauge hammered SxS, but IIRC used a stocked double in the OK Corrall. Clyde usually left 1/2 or more of the stock on and fired from the shoulder, but a few of his whipits were cut to just the pistol grip. Most of these are old time examples, granted.
Jim Cirillo is an advocate of the short barrel pistol grip pump (personally consider him more of an ambush artist than master gunfighter, nothing against the guy and would not have made the observation had people not compared him favorably to legendary men of arms, but like I said hard to argue with a guy who put that many armed men in the ground).
Today would guess the PG is used almost entirely by homeowners on their 870's and 500's, with the occasional crackhead or junkie stick-up man and his foot and a half long single shot NEF .410. For the most part they have vanished from the armories of police nationwide.
unless you need to ccw a shotgun in your overcoat or pull it from under the driver seat or whatever, no need to handicap yourself with just a PG, IMO. For most other uses, you can get around anywhere with a stocked 18" shotgun held to shoulder with proper technique, and get it into action a hell of a lot faster.
The advantage of length savings doesn't really come into play unless the barrel is well under 18", and you need a shotgun in a handgun situation (concealment, extreme close quarters, etc.). For instance, the Witness Protection 870's, Ithaca and Holland Auto & Burglar SxS's, Ithaca Slamfire, or that Serbu Mossberg pump with like 6" barrel. Now you have .410 revolvers trying to fill that role, saw the Taurus .410 promoted as an anti-carjack weapon. (IMO it's pretty far from a real meat grinder, like a couple rounds of #3 Buck out of twin 10" hammerless 20 gauge barrels, an aimable/reloadable claymore, but good for them for making due with what's not Class 3/NFA)
That said, nice alley cleaner you made up and good to see some people still have faith in the combat shotgun. The M4 carbines seem to have eliminated them as well as SMG's, and if I could only have one long gun, that versatility would be hard to beat (though for sporting purposes a 12 gauge covers more bases than any), but nothing comes close to the stopping power of a chest full of buckshot. That's what I want on my side to defend my life and home. And I think if it came down to it, what most people would choose. If a fortune teller showed you in her crystal ball your home being intruded by street urchins, especially if you had the option of being in a fixed position, you'd be nuts to choose a handgun or .223 over a shotgun. If any small arm could be counted on, it would be a 12 gauge pump
Good luck
I've never seen a pro choose a pg shotgun. Anyone else seen one?
The Marshals involved in the Witness Protection program use/used 12.5" 12 gauge 870's. 20" or so OAL. Back in the old days, 12/20 gauge SxS and pump AOWs were THE vehicle defense weapon, and carried by the old school dicks. I believe Doc Holliday walked the streets of Tombstone with a 10 gauge hammered SxS, but IIRC used a stocked double in the OK Corrall. Clyde usually left 1/2 or more of the stock on and fired from the shoulder, but a few of his whipits were cut to just the pistol grip. Most of these are old time examples, granted.
Jim Cirillo is an advocate of the short barrel pistol grip pump (personally consider him more of an ambush artist than master gunfighter, nothing against the guy and would not have made the observation had people not compared him favorably to legendary men of arms, but like I said hard to argue with a guy who put that many armed men in the ground).
Today would guess the PG is used almost entirely by homeowners on their 870's and 500's, with the occasional crackhead or junkie stick-up man and his foot and a half long single shot NEF .410. For the most part they have vanished from the armories of police nationwide.
unless you need to ccw a shotgun in your overcoat or pull it from under the driver seat or whatever, no need to handicap yourself with just a PG, IMO. For most other uses, you can get around anywhere with a stocked 18" shotgun held to shoulder with proper technique, and get it into action a hell of a lot faster.
The advantage of length savings doesn't really come into play unless the barrel is well under 18", and you need a shotgun in a handgun situation (concealment, extreme close quarters, etc.). For instance, the Witness Protection 870's, Ithaca and Holland Auto & Burglar SxS's, Ithaca Slamfire, or that Serbu Mossberg pump with like 6" barrel. Now you have .410 revolvers trying to fill that role, saw the Taurus .410 promoted as an anti-carjack weapon. (IMO it's pretty far from a real meat grinder, like a couple rounds of #3 Buck out of twin 10" hammerless 20 gauge barrels, an aimable/reloadable claymore, but good for them for making due with what's not Class 3/NFA)
That said, nice alley cleaner you made up and good to see some people still have faith in the combat shotgun. The M4 carbines seem to have eliminated them as well as SMG's, and if I could only have one long gun, that versatility would be hard to beat (though for sporting purposes a 12 gauge covers more bases than any), but nothing comes close to the stopping power of a chest full of buckshot. That's what I want on my side to defend my life and home. And I think if it came down to it, what most people would choose. If a fortune teller showed you in her crystal ball your home being intruded by street urchins, especially if you had the option of being in a fixed position, you'd be nuts to choose a handgun or .223 over a shotgun. If any small arm could be counted on, it would be a 12 gauge pump
Good luck
Do they still call the rubber overboots you put on over the boots or shoes, galoshes? Whatever they are called now, we need them, too. .351winchester
Moderator
in other words...
I think most people would do better with a full stocked shotgun. The reduction in overall length is wasted space anyway. If someone likes them and does well with them, I'm all for it. I just don't see how walking with the weapon muzzle down and butt to shoulder mindful of retention makes a full stocked riot gun more unweildy, more than one with a pistol grip. I have tried both and was tremendously slower with the pistol grips configuration.
The only real advantage I see for a pistol grip on a shotgun is when the whole weapon has to be very short and these are extremely specialized tools that very few people would be in the position to ever need. But, some people from various walks of life, mostly in the past, have felt the need to carry a real gun instead of making a handgun their primary and it gave them peace of mind and/or saved their lives, so more power to them. I did not say saw off your Coach Gun and keep it under the steering column.
I think most people would do better with a full stocked shotgun. The reduction in overall length is wasted space anyway. If someone likes them and does well with them, I'm all for it. I just don't see how walking with the weapon muzzle down and butt to shoulder mindful of retention makes a full stocked riot gun more unweildy, more than one with a pistol grip. I have tried both and was tremendously slower with the pistol grips configuration.
The only real advantage I see for a pistol grip on a shotgun is when the whole weapon has to be very short and these are extremely specialized tools that very few people would be in the position to ever need. But, some people from various walks of life, mostly in the past, have felt the need to carry a real gun instead of making a handgun their primary and it gave them peace of mind and/or saved their lives, so more power to them. I did not say saw off your Coach Gun and keep it under the steering column.
