Private firearms sales. Potential liability?

Sinatra_Gunz1 said:
I completely agree with you guys. Honestly I just can't see how a bill of sale is really anything more than just a piece of paper that anyone could create....
In the course of my career in the practice of law I have seen a variety of unanticipated complications arise in all sorts of business transactions. It is often hard to predict what can go wrong, and sometimes problems arise that one could not have expected.

It's generally been the case that the better the transaction has been documented, the easier it will be to favorably work out any problem that might arise.

Of course if I'm buying or selling something like a cheap folding chair for $5.00, I'm not going to worry. But if I'm dealing with an item of some value which it often a target of thieves and/or which might cause injury or be misused, I'm going to want to more thoroughly document the deal.

And if I'm dealing with something that is rare, desirable, and quite valuable -- art worth thousands of dollars, a fine watch, jewelry, etc. -- I'm going to be very thorough about documentation, including evidence of provenance and authenticity.

That's how I conduct business, and it's worked well for me and for my clients.
 
I really don't understand this "connection to a crime" thing. Either YOU committed the crime or not.

I have no control over what someone else does.

Me neither. And we all know that, rationally-speaking, that's the way it should work.

I would much rather sell guns to an FFL or do a transfer and pay the fee than give out my personal info such as DL address or DL number to some guy off Armslist I'm buying or selling a firearm to. And that would mean the end of private sales...private sales are really the only way to recoup a decent amount of money back that you paid for a gun if you want to get rid of it and buy a new one, etc.
 
Sinatra_Gunz1 said:
I really don't understand this "connection to a crime" thing. Either YOU committed the crime or not.

I have no control over what someone else does.

Me neither. And we all know that, rationally-speaking, that's the way it should work....
How you think things should work and how things actually work in real life in the real world are often different.

With regard to possible criminal liability for transferring a gun to a prohibited person, the teat is basically whether you knew or had reasonable cause to believe that the person was prohibited under federal or state law from possessing a gun. If you're unlucky, whether you had "reasonable cause to believe" will be decided by a jury. While the jurors would be instructed that they must make their decision based on circumstances at the time of sale, they will still be deciding after the fact.

The issue of possible civil liability is more complicated.

If a buyer hurts someone or commits a crime with a gun sold by a private liability will generally be based on negligence. Negligence in law is basically:
A failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances. The behavior usually consists of actions, but can also consist of omissions when there is some duty to act (e.g., a duty to help victims of one's previous conduct).
Negligence is generally a question for a jury. Basically the jury will need to decide, after all the evidence about what took place and what everyone said or did is presented whether the defendant acted as a reasonable and prudent person would in the same situation.

And how a jury would conclude a reasonable and prudent person should act in the course of selling something to a stranger would be influenced by what was being sold. Since a gun can be used particularly effectively and efficiently to do evil by someone so inclined, an impartial jury might easily decide that a reasonable and prudent person would exercise more care selling a gun to a stranger than selling an chair to a stranger.

And remember that if you're now being sued about that gun you sold, the person you sold the gun to committed a crime or hurt someone with it. So now, with the knowledge that the gun you sold was used for an evil purpose, a jury will be closely examining the evidence about what went on during the transaction to decide if a reasonable and prudent person would have sold the gun to that buyer under the circumstances that obtained at the time of sale.

Even though it discusses the nature of a gun owners duty of due care in a different context, the storage of a gun, rather than the sale, loan or entrustment to another person of a gun, this case from gun-friendly Montana, (Estate of Strever v. Cline, 924 P.2d 666 (Mont., 1995), at 671 -- 672) offers some interesting insights:
...A firearm, particularly one that is loaded or has ammunition in close proximity, is considered a dangerous instrumentality and therefore requires a higher degree of care in its use or handling. This concept is set out in the Restatement (Second) of Torts, which provides:

Care required. The care required is always reasonable care. This standard never varies, but the care which it is reasonable to require of the actor varies with the danger involved in his act, and is proportionate to it. The greater the danger, the greater the care which must be exercised.

As in all cases where the reasonable character of the actor's conduct is in question, its utility is to be weighed against the magnitude of the risk which it involves. [Citation omitted.] The amount of attention and caution required varies with the magnitude of the harm likely to be done if care is not exercised, and with the utility of the act. Therefore, if the act has little or no social value and is likely to cause any serious harm, it is reasonable to require close attention and caution. So too, if the act involves a risk of death or serious bodily harm, and particularly if it is capable of causing such results to a number of persons, the highest attention and caution are required even if the act has a very considerable utility. Thus those who deal with firearms ... are required to exercise the closest attention and the most careful precautions, not only in preparing for their use but in using them....

Restatement (Second) of Torts § 298 cmt. b (1965).

Accordingly, given the foreseeability of the risk involved in the improper and unsafe use and storage of a firearm; given the strong policy considerations favoring safe and prudent use and storage; and on the basis of the law as set forth in §§ 1-1-204, 27-1-701 and 28-1-201, MCA, our decisions in Limberhand, Maguire, Phillips, Mang and Busta and the above referred to standards of care set forth in Prosser and Keeton on Torts and in comment b to § 298 of the Restatement, we hold that, as a matter of law, the owner of a firearm has a duty to the general public to use and to store the firearm in a safe and prudent manner taking into consideration the type of firearm, whether it is loaded or unloaded, whether the ammunition is in close proximity or easily attainable, and the location and circumstances of its use and storage.

Because we conclude that Susanj owed a legal duty to the general public to store his firearm and ammunition in a manner consistent with this standard of care,...

Note especially the discussion of what "reasonable care" means with regard to firearms (Estate of Strever, at 671, quoting from Restatement (Second) of Torts, emphasis added):
...As in all cases where the reasonable character of the actor's conduct is in question, its utility is to be weighed against the magnitude of the risk which it involves. [Citation omitted.] The amount of attention and caution required varies with the magnitude of the harm likely to be done if care is not exercised, and with the utility of the act. Therefore, if the act has little or no social value and is likely to cause any serious harm, it is reasonable to require close attention and caution. So too, if the act involves a risk of death or serious bodily harm, and particularly if it is capable of causing such results to a number of persons, the highest attention and caution are required even if the act has a very considerable utility. Thus those who deal with firearms ... are required to exercise the closest attention and the most careful precautions, not only in preparing for their use but in using them....

Also, as a private seller, you will not shielded from liability under the Protection of Lawful Conduct in Arms Act (15 USC 7901, et seq).
 
Thank you Frank. All very eye-opening information. It was a great read. Many things stood out to me. I'm not worried about my acts being negligent because I follow state law and do my best to exercise as much caution as possible.

With regard to possible criminal liability for transferring a gun to a prohibited person, the teat is basically whether you knew or had reasonable cause to believe that the person was prohibited under federal or state law from possessing a gun. If you're unlucky, whether you had "reasonable cause to believe" will be decided by a jury. While the jurors would be instructed that they must make their decision based on circumstances at the time of sale, they will still be deciding after the fact.

Makes perfect sense and I think any reasonable person would support this. If you knew or had reason to believe the person you were selling the gun to was prohibited from owning or would go and do something crazy, you should be held liable.

But say in the case where you exercise caution, sell a gun to someone in a perfectly legal manner, they keep it for a year and sell it to someone else who in turn sells it to a guy who robs a bank with it, or if it somehow ends up at a known crack den and confiscated post raid, or someone uses it to injure/kill someone can the initial private seller still be held liable for that or would it be nearly impossible for a private seller to be wrongly charged with something under those circumstances? That's the only thing I'd ever worry about, a gun could change hands several times post an initial private sale and there's no way to predict where it could end up later on down the line. I would reasonably think that under our current laws the initial seller would be fine under those circumstances but then again, maybe I'm overlooking something.
 
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In case of later event, are you screwed without a Bill of Sale?

No, you aren't. They ask who you sold it to and you replied something along the lines of a person of legal age with proper ID and I do not remember their name.
 
No, you aren't. They ask who you sold it to and you replied something along the lines of a person of legal age with proper ID and I do not remember their name.

Some guy working at a local gun store in AZ told me that "they" would come "looking for you" if a gun you purchased from an FFL ends up abandoned at a crime scene and if you don't have proof showing who you sold it to, "they" would raid your house, arrest you, take your guns for safekeeping and consider you the main suspect and that you'd have to spend thousands to clear your name.

Maybe he was trying to scare me to get me to trade in my Colt for 40% less than market value...
 
Sinatra Gunz1 said:
Some guy working at a local gun store in AZ told me that "they" would come "looking for you" if a gun you purchased from an FFL ends up abandoned at a crime scene and if you don't have proof showing who you sold it to, "they" would raid your house, arrest you, take your guns for safekeeping and consider you the main suspect and that you'd have to spend thousands to clear your name.
If a firearm that was used in a crime traces to you as the last known link in the chain of possession, you can be assured the police or the FBI or the BATFE will come have a chat with you. If you tell them you sold the gun to a person who showed you an in-state drivers license and a carry permit but you didn't make a record of his info since you were satisfied that he wasn't prohibited ... they might thank you and leave, or they might not like your story and arrest you. It's going to boil down to the circumstances of the particular case.

If they charge you, they then have to prove their case. That might be difficult for them ... but you have to defend yourself, so it would be expensive for you even if you "win."

Are you, as the seller, going to be safer if you record the buyer's name, address, and permit number, and have him execute a bill of sale? Of course you are. But, as others have already commented in this thread (and many other threads), in states where undocumented face-to-face sales are legal, you will significantly reduce your pool of potential buyers if you insist on documentation. In the end, it comes down to what your level of comfort is. Nobody on this forum can determine that for you.
 
Makes sense to me. Not gonna lie, it's some scary stuff. I guess it's a risk we take as gun owners. I've only ever sold 2 guns FTF and did not get a bill of sale and I worry about it every once in a while.

Has anyone here ever gotten a call from police after having a gun traced back to them? How did it go?
 
I can tell you for a fact, even in states like NY, private sales of long guns are NOT going through FFL, no matter how much legislation they pass!
 
What if LE try to say you sold it to that person? Or that you committed a crime with that gun that you had nothing to do with? Etc.

well, they would have to prove it....

If a firearm that was used in a crime traces to you as the last known link in the chain of possession, you can be assured the police or the FBI or the BATFE will come have a chat with you. If you tell them you sold the gun to a person who showed you an in-state drivers license and a carry permit but you didn't make a record of his info since you were satisfied that he wasn't prohibited ... they might thank you and leave, or they might not like your story and arrest you. It's going to boil down to the circumstances of the particular case.

Include in the circumstances of the particular case the diligence and ethics of the investigating officers. I once knew a fellow who was arrested for stealing his own car. The local police had no other suspect so they arrested him, claiming he did it as insurance fraud. They didn't drop the case until he provided witnesses putting him at a location where it was physically impossible for him to have dumped the car and gotten back in time.

It is always POSSIBLE the police can charge you, but it is unlikely, unless there is something ELSE connecting you to the gun. IF you're someplace that doesn't require you, by law, to keep records, then you don't have to keep records.

It may be a good idea to do so, but that's on you.
 
In my little county I know a lot of the prohibited people.

TBH, even if I don't know if they are prohibited I can tell with about a 90% accuracy if they probably are just by talking to them for ten minutes and examining them and their vehicle.

If you want to be nice and cautious go ahead and do business in the police station lobby or parking lot where legal. Anyone prohibited is extremely unlikely to go there to make a deal because the local police will recognize them. in County near me the sheriff just opened up the lobby of the sheriff's department for on line trades after a man was shot and robbed by two people he was dealing with on Craigs list (for an XBox).

Never meet someone at your home that you arranged a meeting with on line.
 
Has anyone here ever gotten a call from police after having a gun traced back to them? How did it go?
Yep. About 8 years ago, I traded a Sig pistol for a S&W 19. I'd purchased the Sig at retail, so there was a paper trail.

About two years ago, I got a weird letter from the DEA. They said a firearm "registered" to me had been confiscated as evidence in a bust in Connecticut, and I needed to contact them if I wanted to assert ownership.

Huh? The guy I'd traded it to was a retired sheriff's deputy from south Georgia. I went ahead and called. The folks at the DEA were actually quite nice. I told them I'd relinquished ownership of the gun years prior, and they asked me if I'd sold it to Tommy "The Chopper" Mendoza. No, I hadn't. OK, Mr. Servo, thanks for your time. That was the end of it.

Fortunately, the gun wasn't used to hurt anyone. It was part of a whole raft of property they confiscated when they busted the guy. I got in touch with the deputy to whom I'd sold it, and it had been stolen from his car a few years back.

(Real names have been changed to protect, well, everybody.)
 
CYA
Thank you guys for all the information. Alright...so basically, do due diligence, sell the gun, get cash, then stop worrying because it's not yours anymore? In case of later event, are you screwed without a Bill of Sale?
Do a bill of sale. PERIOD[/I'll make this quick, I make a gun show sale- I do a bill of sale- Dr. Lic-CCW permit-gun used in state of NJ armed robbery. Local sheriff shows up at my house inquiring about the gun. All I will say is thanks god I had a bill of sale. Last I knew ATF was having a discussion with the person I sold the gun to
 
What can they do to you if you live in a free state with no record keeping requirements though? According to most people here you can just tell them you sold the gun long ago and have no written record. Just can't see how a bos would do anything to cover you legally.
 
Just can't see how a bos would do anything to cover you legally.

To many folks, it's a legal document showing you do not own the firearm anymore and gives the name and contact info on who was next in line. Theoretically it takes any heat off from you if said firearm is known to have been used in the commission of a crime.


As for your original question, COZ answered it early on....

You have to follow the laws in your particular state.
 
I just had a guy call my shop to " register" a gun in the buyers name.

I told him in KY there is no registertion. And that he did not need to do that , all he needed was a bill of sale.

He still wanted to do the FFL thing so I told him to go to a friends shop , who I knew was open on Sunday.
 
What can they do to you if you live in a free state with no record keeping requirements though? According to most people here you can just tell them you sold the gun long ago and have no written record. Just can't see how a bos would do anything to cover you legally.

I guess you are reading and not understanding or just have your own view point. Which is absolutely fine. I would not want to try and fathom what would have come about with the sale I made if the robber shot and killed someone with a gun I sold in FLA without a bill of sale. The person i sold the gun to had a CCW and drivers license both issued by the state of Florida. Both had the same address and the photo on both documents matched the individual that purchased the gun. While speaking with and answering the deputies questions in my kitchen I showed the bill of sale. The deputy calls the LE investigator in NJ and gives all the details from the bill of sale to her. She in turn calls the person who purchased the gun denied he ever purchased the gun from me and stated he knew nothing of what they were asking him about. The LE in NJ calls me and asks me to fax a copy of the bill of sale to her. I do so and as I stated in my previous post she got the ATF involved from what I will assume is possible gun running.
You may conduct you firearm sales as you wish. just be prepared for the aftermath should something happen down the road.
 
Never meet someone at your home that you arranged a meeting with on line.
A drivers license and I will take a picture of it

We all agree that doing a FTF at your home is a really bad idea.... So, why would anybody provide their drivers license with their home address on it. Just dumb.

Jim
 
laytonj1 said:
Never meet someone at your home that you arranged a meeting with on line.

A drivers license and I will take a picture of it

We all agree that doing a FTF at your home is a really bad idea.... So, why would anybody provide their drivers license with their home address on it. Just dumb.
And therein lies the crux of the issue: As buyers, we would prefer NOT to give out any personal information that's not required by law. For personal security. But as sellers, we need to get as much personal information on the buyer as possible ... for [our] personal security. It's a fundamental case of conflicting priorities, and how each of us resolves that is going to have to be a personal decision.

I don't own a lot of firearms and I rarely sell one. For the rare instance when I do, I long ago decided that my personal comfort level was best reached by selling on consignment and letting a professional FFL worry about vetting the buyer.
 
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