Private firearms sales. Potential liability?

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Sinatra_Gunz1

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I would really appreciate any advice in regards to private sales in AZ, Texas and other states where face-to-face private sales are legal without transferring through an FFL. As long as I do my due diligence, check ID and make sure the person I'm selling to is of age and a resident of my state and have no reason to believe they are a criminal, is it perfectly legal to sell a firearm for cash? That's what I understand and what I've been taught. Recently through I've been told by someone that private sale of a firearm can open you up to legal issues in the case that gun is later used in a crime by some unsavory criminal scumbag. Is that true? Let's say I sell a gun I bought from an FFL to some upstanding guy with a CCW, months later they sell it to someone who in turn sells it to someone else and it ends up in the hands of some degenerate and they commit a crime with it, the cops recover the gun and trace it to me. Would there be a possibility of me being in some kind of trouble? How does that usually go? I haven't given this much thought before. I know most states do not require a bill of sale or anything for private sales. If anyone has any advice or experience with private, FTF sales I'd be thankful for any input/advice etc.
 
Is I simply do that will it cause any potential issues if that gun is traced back to me? My state doesn't require any sort of registration or paperwork for a private sale. Will that protect me from any potential liability in the future if someone uses the gun in the commission of a crime?
 
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You have to follow the laws in your particular state.
In Minnesota all I need to do is ask if they are a resident and can legally own a fire arm.
I can not knowingly sell to a person who can not own a fire arm.

Personally I also ask to look at their drivers license and I do fill out and sign a bill of sale with description and sn#'s just as I would for any private party property sale. If I wont sell a lawn mower with out a receipt I certainly wont sell a fire arm. But that's just me.

Once you have met the legal requirements. Its your property you can ask what ever you want to complete the transaction. You can ask them to jump on one leg if you want.
If some one wont show me a Dl or sign a receipt. No sale..
 
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About ten years ago I sold my first firearm here in AZ. It was a friend-of-a-friend sort of deal, and a couple days before we were to meet up for the exchange, I gave this issue some thought.

In the end I decided to print up a receipt (there's a template for this sort of thing on most word processors on any computer) and had him sign it before handing over the weapon.

Since then I've decided that I'll only sell to CCW carriers, just as another layer of CMA.

Personally, this is more of a clear conscience sort of thing than a legality thing. I'd probably be extremely upset if I sold a gun to someone and then found out that person used it in a violent crime.

To each his own, though.
 
I had a FFL in the 90's before the ATF cut back on us. I sold guns and the ones I had left I sold to myself. I sent my books to the ATF. A few years after I went out of business . I sold a gun to a good friend. The local police contacted me that one of the guns they had that was used in a crime came back to me. I kept a record whom I sold it to. Told them who it was.
I had every right to sell a gun as I had no FFL and it is legal in my state.
I call my friend whom sold it to his friend in a different state. His friend had sold it and it ended up back in my town used on a crime. Nothing else was ever done by the police.
Point of story.
Keep records whom you sell them to. Cover your butt. ;)
As for private sales check with your local law enforcement before you do if you cant find out on a reliable source on line.
You can only sell the gun to someone in your state. You mention many states.
 
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Sinatra Gunz1 said:
My state doesn't require any sort of registration or paperwork for a private sale. Will that protect me from any potential liability in the future if someone uses the gun in the commission of a crime?
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Nothing.

This discussion comes up periodically. Typically, for every participant who says they write down (or photograph) the buyer's permit or driver's license, or insist on filling out two copies of a bill of sale, there are an equal number of people who respond that if a seller insists on writing down or copying their personal information, the deal is off. You have to balance how much personal protection you want against a potential future event that's highly unlikely to occur, against your willingness to significantly reduce the pool of prospective buyers for your wares.

I don't own a lot of guns, and I rarely sell one. When I do, I sell through an FFL so I don't have to worry about such things. I'll take the 15% commission hit as the price for my peace of mind.

Since your question involves multiple states and you haven't said where you live, keep in mind that any transfer of a handgun across state lines MUST go through an FFL in the buyer's home state. That doesn't just mean that if your place of residence is AZ and you happen to be in TX you can go ahead and sell a handgun in TX. You're not a resident of TX, so that would still be construed as a transfer across state lines.
 
I had a FFL in the 90's before the ATF cut back on us.
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Yeah, that's where the anti-gun people were too smart for their own britches. If they'd have not cut-out the "kitchen table" FFL's, with no effort, there'd be close to universal background checks today.
 
Thank you guys for all the information. Alright...so basically, do due diligence, sell the gun, get cash, then stop worrying because it's not yours anymore? In case of later event, are you screwed without a Bill of Sale?
 
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My state doesn't require any sort of registration or paperwork for a private sale.
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You answered your own question. But if it makes you feel better ask for a CCW. Get a copy of the person's driver's license. Take a selfie with them. Have them sign an affidavit swearing to not commit a crime with that particular weapon. Get a bill of sale. Have it notarized.

OR.

Take cash. Give weapon.

:D

Really, just make sure they are an adult. If they tell you they are going to go and kill someone, don't sell it to them. Just use common sense.
 
Thank you sir I appreciate the info. Also made me laugh with the whole notarizing thing. That all makes complete sense, the only thing I'm worried about is getting a call years later from the police asking me about the gun if it's later used in a crime. Can I just tell them I sold it? Would I be in trouble for anything even though everything I did was perfectly legal? Sorry for the newb questions just never talked to anyone about this subject in depth.
 
You are asking good questions.

Would it better to have those things to prove you sold the gun? Sure. But I won't be buying a gun from you under those conditions. Why? Just because.

I'm firmly in the Ghost Gun camp. A transaction between you and I is between you and I.
 
I'm worried about is getting a call years later from the police asking me about the gun if it's later used in a crime. Can I just tell them I sold it? Would I be in trouble for anything even though everything I did was perfectly legal?
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There are no requirements to keep records of private sales.
Tell them it was sold and don't worry about it.
 
Well, looking only at federal law, the standard for a non-dealer is described in 18 U.S.C. 922 (d)

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person— (list of prohibited person categories follows)
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So, if you knew or had reasonable cause to believe that the person you are selling to is a prohibited person under federal law (i.e. the kid was 12 years old, the guy does a line of cocaine right in front of you, the guy hands you his restraining order when you ask for ID), then you are breaking federal law by selling to them.

State law may add additional wrinkles, even in fairly pro-gun states.

Also, if you are doing a lot of private sales, ATF may take the position that you are "engaged in the business of selling firearms", which requires you to have an FFL. Typically, you really have to repeatedly ignore ATF warnings to get hit with that charge.
 
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I completely agree with you guys. Honestly I just can't see how a bill of sale is really anything more than just a piece of paper that anyone could create. It doesn't really mean much unless you have actual identifying information like a driver's license number or something which I would never give anyone that isn't an FFL.

I think we're all in agreement about not wanting to sell to unsavory people, us legit gun owners want to keep our guns between ourselves. But if that gun ever ends up in the hands of a meth addicted felon years down the line, I can see how it would be worrying. What if LE try to say you sold it to that person? Or that you committed a crime with that gun that you had nothing to do with? Etc.

I really hope that these are all just unnecessary worries. Justice should always prevail. You just never know what some staunchly anti-gun DA will pull...
 
As it stands right now, ATF rarely prosecutes people who are in much less ambiguous situations than the one you describe. Maybe that will change 40 years from now; but by and large my experience has been that you really have to work at being dumb before ATF will prosecute. State prosecutors on the other hand...
 
I've done multiple private sales in AZ and TX.
I want to see:
Not a young smartazz / punk or heavily tatoo'ed possible gang banger
A CHL / CCW if it exists
If not
A straight up answer to "are you able to lawfully on this gun"
A drivers license and I will take a picture of it

Then Cash that looks and feels legit, then the gun
 
If it’s that much of a concern why not just do the transaction through an FFL?

I’m up in the air on this one, if I’m going to spend 500+ dollars on something I think it’s in my best interest to have a bill of sale proving my ownership.

If police ever show up on my doorstep telling me that my name has come up in connection with a crime the only words they’ll hear from me are “I’d like to speak with an attorney please.”
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I really don't understand this "connection to a crime" thing. Either YOU committed the crime or not.

I have no control over what someone else does.
 
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