Primer failings

W

white_collar

Inactive
In the past year or so I have had a problem with Winchester, CCI, and Remington large and small primers not going off. I reload for the M1 Garand, SKS, and Mosin Nagant 91/30 in large rifle and the AR15 with small rifle primers. The failure to fire isn't as bad with the rifle rounds. However, I load 9mm and 45 ACP with several not going off the first trigger pull. I use the Dillon Square Deal as well as hand primers from RCBS and Lee. Same results. 9mm is the worst, but 45 large primers also give me problems. Usually out of 100 rounds of 9mm I'll have 1-2 that no matter how many times I reset the trigger on a Glock 19, Glock 21, or Ruger LCP9, the primers are dead. In 9mm I'll usually have 2-4 in a 17 round mag that do not go off the first time or second time, but will the third. I've started loading all 9mm with hand primers being careful to make sure they are in and not mashing the surface. But the Dillon Square Deal, regardless of what I do continues to give me 4-5 failures in each mag requiring a 2nd and third trigger pull before they go off. I asked Dillon and the Tech told me to push the handle forward. I do, but still have the problem. Any solutions would help and I'll try them all, if possible! Thanks. BTW, I have put heavier firing pin springs in the Glocks but no help. This problem started about a year or so ago.
 
Clean the carbon out of the primer pockets? I use Winchester primers almost exclusively, and haven't had a problem since I learned to clean the primer pockets 20+ years ago.
 
The fact you are hitting a 1% or 2% primer failure across several different guns leads me to believe the problem is with the primer seating. I seat primers with a few hand seating tools, I use an old Lee and also use a RCBS to hand prime. I seat a primer till I feel it bottom out in the pocket and this way I know the primer's anvil is seated.

If we look at the SAAMI primer specifications and primer pocket specifications and then check out primers and brass we can get a good idea of where the finished product should come in.
Primer%20and%20Primer%20Pocket%20Dimensions%20SAAMI.png


If you look at the depth of your primer pockets, using a vernier is good enough and also measure the primer height we should see where a correctly seated primer will sit. Example of a white business card showing primer depth. Visually there is about .003" or more depth below the case head.
Primer%20Seat%202.png


You can also look at firing pin protrusion but when a problem like this exist over several guns I tend to focus on the priming methods. I have on a few ocasions loaded primers and then noticed an errant primer anvil in the tray so I know I have one that is not going to go bang but I seldom in a thousand rounds have a primer fail.

I also clean the primer pockets.
Priming%203.png


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Ron
 
Chainsaw. said:
Make sure your firing pin channels are clean.

I agree with above, your primers must be setting to deep.
Click to expand...
My guess would be too shallow, as the first 1-2 impacts by the striker are maybe just finishing seating the primer, then finally lighting it off. If it's too deep, will it ever ignite, no matter how many times you try?

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
 
The Square Deal apparently loads handgun rounds. What tool do you use for rifle loading and how do you prime the rifle cases (hand priming tool I assume)? With the rifle rounds in particular, if you conclude that primers are not seating completely (sounds like that is what is happening), I would strongly recommend investing in the RCBS Automatic Priming Tool. A little expensive perhaps but well worth it. It bolts to the loading bench and provides way more leverage than the hand tools and comes with attachments for both large and small primers. This tool will eliminate shallow seated primers if that is the problem.

It uses standard RCBS type shell holders and a primer tube as part of the "automatic" system.
 
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Since relaoding Equipment is fairly standardised you almost can NOT do anything wrong by seating the primer.

Primer pocket can not Change in the case. So it can not be too deep nor to big (loose primers)

Primers are standardised as well so they will fit.

Primer seating Equipment is fairly standardised as well so the seating arm allways will seat the primer correctly (correct depth).

The only Thing I can imagine makes the primer fail/or powder fail is OIL IN THE INSIDE OF THE CASE OR PRIMER POCKET SO IT CONTAMINATES THE PRIMER/POWDER.
I had at early reloadings some squibs due to overlubricating the reloading dies and press. If you use liquid oil like for sewing machines in the first die then that puts some oil into the primer pocket and case.
 
I developed a paranoid reaction to primers early on in reloading for just the OP's experiences. Every time I see comments like the OP has made, I know the problem is not properly seating the primers. Maybe they do not look like high primers, that is precisely what an incorrectly seated primer is.

I am not familiar with the Square Deal as my primary reloading tool is the Dillon 550. Over time (and most likely in excess of 100 bricks of primers) I have worn the primer rods down enough to no longer correctly seat primers. Actually that happened years ago and rather than replace parts, I wanted a more sure fix. So here is the sure fix:

First, properly address military crimped primers. I use a swager to fix this but there are other good fixes.

Second, why waste reloading time on primer pocket cleaners? A mechanical fix is far better than a cosmetic one.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...clair-primer-pocket-uniformers-prod34720.aspx

A primer pocket uniformer will restore the pocket to the SAAMI proper dimensions, mechanically. Anything the uniformer does not remove is simply not interfering with proper seating. Sounds like you need the three basic sizes. Reference the SAAMI dimension charts provided by Reloadron. One size for small pistol/rifle, one for large pistol and one for large rifle.

Also if you want to be completely check redundant, there are go/no go primer pocket gages that do nothing except measure the primer pocket. These are probably the cheapest gages out there but do exactly that.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/search/index.htm?k=swage+gage&ksubmit=y

Third, I finally figured out that despite my experience and conviction that I could feel primers seating on the Dillon, I was simply wrong. I no longer prime on a Dillon or any other load press. I have tried several hand primers, actually broke a Lee handle, but I ended up with one that to me has the best feel and also is adjustable to include adjusting for long term wear. This one:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...nd-tools/sinclair-priming-tool-prod37732.aspx

Fourth, I do not use a loading block, I use a glass plate (Or plate from a picture frame). It took me forever to get a feel for primer proper seating, but running my cases constantly on glass is kinda an alternative check, since I am more concerned about high primers than anything else.

Now after doing all the above as case prep for primers, If I have an instance of failure to fire, I start suspecting the gun first. Finally I should note that the primers I use are all of the brands you listed. Further, I do not believe I have ever encountered a bad primer.
 
Yes; the OP may have an dextricity Problem. His motoric senses may be not very precise if I may mention that.
He may no feel when the primer is seated.

I use the arm of my Lyman turret press to prime. It has allways a positive stop when fully seated. Priming is indeed a question of Feeling.

Watch out for primer flip as well but that you will notice on your primed rounds.

If you overpush the priming then the anvil may crunch or primer walls start to crumble. In eighter case the primer is damaged and will not fire.
 
I'm counting six different cartridges, right? Maybe up to ten primer brands and sizes, ten or so different firearms, and every one of these combinations is giving you trouble?

I just don't even know how to address that.
 
Which hand primer are you using. I recently have had the same issue once I started using an RCBS universal hand primer tool. There was nothing wrong with the tool by the way. I just did not have a part fully tightened as per the directions. I took it apart, and put it back together, and it seemed to fix the problem. My Lee Auto Prime never had a problem, until I encountered staked, and crimped primers. Then I had to go though multiple strikes to get them to fire. A few twist with a primer pocket reamer solved that issue. Watch the head stamps. Some brands will always have them. S&B even stakes revolver primer pockets.
 
I'd say they're not seated firmly enough and the firing pin is wasting energy seating them fully. That's why the rifle stuff (stronger springs) works better than your pistol rounds.

I seat them in pretty hard. Not exactly mashed, but there is definitely some deformation. I've had 1 unexplained fail to fire in probably 20k rounds.
 
This is not a in common problem. I struggled with it for decades. My permanent solution is simple and sweet.

First of all let me say that a lot of decent suggestions have covered the issue as far as I am concerned. All though no mater how clean the pocket is and it is necessary to keep them fairly clean. The process with most of the case manufacturers is that the primer flash hole punching can deform the pocket enough to cause a problem.

The solution is to purchase a Redding or similar (primer pocket uniformer) also called a primer pocket reamer. Not one of those twisty stamped hand tools but a precision cutting tool.

Ream the pocket one time and you will not have to do it again. I'm convinced that is the only way to solve the problem of seating the primers for good. You will see a small amount of brass shavings come out of the corners... of the pocket.

I found this out on this Forum. This Forum keeps us handLosders up to date with the latest and greatest. Thanks to (The Firing Line) :)
 
I think you are probably not seating the primers deep enough...so when the gun fires, its in effect seating the primer deeper into the case.

If you haven't fully stripped and cleaned the gun ( firing pin especially ) then do that to eliminate it.

Cleaning, deburring primer pockets is a waste of time in my view...not necessary ...its a matter of understanding how to seat a primer properly ( compare your rounds to factory ammo, etc...in terms of primer seating )...

If you're not having the same issues with factory ammo ...its a primer seating depth issue.
( as a comparison, I reload and shoot about 8 boxes a week of 9mm...and I have not had a primer - not detonate - in well over 15 years / I use Win and CCI primers --- primarily CCI but Win is my backup brand and I've used a lot of Win in the last year or so).
 
Although I nver had any Problem with primers I use this tool:

multitool_w-pkg.jpg

Source of Picture: https://www.lymanproducts.com/brand...case-prep-care-kits/case-prep-multi-tool.html

It has an small primer pocket reamer and large primer pocket reamer.

In my experience the pocket CLEANER and pocket REAMER are of somewhat similar functionality.

The pocket cleaner has an flat screwdriver type end which scrubs gunk out (it is not that effective but I anyways use it allways if I do not Forget to use it while reloading).
The pocket reamer has a few angled cutting edges which supposed to take out Military primers. This one is capable of shawing off some brass from the primer pocket (in order to not alter the factory primer pocket I do not use this bit).
 
Especially loading for the Garand, you should obtain the Redding primer pocket uniformer as mentioned by longshot4. This tool attaches to an electric drill and reams out the primer pocket to optimum depth to eliminate high primers that could result in slam fires or firing out of battery. Using that tool and CCI #34 primers are the safe way to go. I think I mentioned the RCBS automatic priming tool in a previous post.
 
I've loaded prolly 50,000 plus rounds of ammo in the last 40 years and I've had
maybe 2 bad primers. I have failed to seat them and had to pull the trigger on them again. I did have major problems seating CCI and Win primers at times, I figure they were oversize but couldn't measure them to prove it. I now use Federal pistol primers if available. Never had problems with Federal primers. Use Win and CCI rifle primers without any problems. If the Dillon press isn't seating the primers it prolly needs adjusting, if you don't know how, call The Dillon folks.
 
The Lyman Case prep Multitool uniforms the primer pocket as well.

I just tried it.
A few twists and the primer pocket has again it's original dimensions. It even deepens the pocket but deepening is somewhat more difficult with this tool and I think it is on purpose. You are no supposed to Play around with the primer pocket too much deepening it at will.

This Lyman tool even has an stop on the reamer which doesn't let you further deepen the pocket. At that Point the edges of the primer pocket are beveled. The more deep you make the primer pocket with this Lyman tool the more beveled get the edges of the primer pocket.

If you mess around with all Kind of Tools in the primer pocket you most likely screw it up completely. Since you make too big the Diameter of the hole or you make it to deep. Shaved off brass you can not put on again!

The Redding primer pocket uniformer has it's cutting edges from below deepening ONLY the primer pocket. This Dillon tool ONLY deepens the primer pocket and does NOT uniform the sides of the primer pocket.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/664266/redding-primer-pocket-uniformer-tool-large

The Lyman Case prep Multitool has it's cutting edges on the sides of the reamer bit and NOT from below. So this tool uniforms the sides of the primer pocket but not depth (but I observed it scratches off quiete a bit the bottom as well).
 
I agree with those who say you may be seating your primers too shallow.

I prefer to hand prime. I use an old Lee hand primer that I bought in 2008. The Lyman reloading manual I have recommends seating each primer twice when hand priming to ensure the primer is seated level in the pocket. Seat once, turn the case 180 degrees, seat it again.

I seat a batch of 100 to clear the tray. Then I turn the cases 180 degrees and run them through the primer tool again. Probably 90% of the primers seat a nudge deeper to nice, full stops. By doing this, I've seated Magtech LPPs and Magtech and CCI SRPs (for .223 Rem) without a single failure to fire. Let me repeat that: I've never had a primer fail on me. And I've never used any kind of tool or gauge to check seating depth.

Up until three months ago, I didn't bother cleaning or uniforming primer pockets. Never had a problem. Then I became convinced that wet tumbling with stainless steel pins was a much better way to clean brass than what I was doing at the time. Since I deprime all my brass before cleaning, the primer pockets now get cleaned. Still haven't had a problem, and the primers seat much easier too.
 
I have had exactly one dud centerfire primer in my life after decades of reloading. I only use CCI, Federal, and Winchester primers and I reload on a single-stage press, paying strict attention to the priming operation, looking and feeling for high primers. Some case/primer combinations take a lot more pressure to seat correctly than others. The primer is not in all the way until it IS in all the way, regardless of the pressure required to get there. I have some Winchester large rifle magnum primers that I swear are .0005 undersize that will go in most of the way by thumb pressure alone. Switching to another brand or lot# of primers and everything is tight. Being consistent with one brand of primers may help some, but if you are reloading mixed brands of brass, the primer pockets from one brand to another can feel quite different when you seat the primers.
 
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