Practical Vs. Tactical

WHAT REAL WORLD TRAINING FOR YOU?

  • IPSC

    Votes: 3 5.0%

  • IDPA

    Votes: 7 11.7%

  • SIMMUNITION "FORCE-ON_FORCE" TRAINING

    Votes: 50 83.3%
  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
It will all help in a real life encounter. It will allow your mind to be able to focus on the surroundings and conflict at hand, while your gun control -draw, grip, safety release, aiming, and firing- will all be more or less instictive at that point. You will be able to remain clear in your mind and control the panic and fear that will ultimately confront you when having someone put your life in danger.
If you aren't feeling stress and pressure in your matches, take it more seriously, I always feel pressure. Even on a course I've run a dozen times, I still let the pressure build up on me because, as Lurper said, pressure is pressure.
I have never had to fire in SD but I have drawn and was ready to fire,and was really figuring at that point I would have no choice but to fire to defend myself. The situation quickly changed, but had I been in a panic and not calm and collected, I may have shot without needing to which could have ended badly for both of us. I still would have been legally justified, but feel much better knowing I didn't take a life that I didn't have to. I know I could have and would have shot if I needed to, but taking range time and the "games" seriously allowed me to stay in control of myself, and my gun.
Just my buck 'o two.
 
Denny, You are lucky. I get stressed every match on IPSC or Threegun (the matches I shoot most). The stress for me has either diminished a tad or my ability to deal with it has increased because I am better now than I was at first. I still get "butterflies" and have to visit the head before the match. My ability to move is always slightly affected. I also feel slow. I've been told that all are signs of stress.

I used to get the same feeling while playing league softball. Also while sparring in Karate especially while waiting my turn.

Lurper, Of the folks I know with gunfight expierience none used any other tactic than hit the target ASAP. Of the shootings that I have been told about by the survivor/victim I cannot remember tactics being employed just hit the target fast or being hit fast. Most I do remember happened very quickly. None were drawn out events.

While doing my range officer duty at Dade City Rod and Gun Club I was talking to a man who had just been home invaded. This guy ran to his bedroom for his pistol with 3 armed guys following. He got his sa hunting revolver and was able to partially close the bedroom door when he and the bad guys began struggling for the door. The badguy fired several shots thru the door one of which hit this guy on the upper forearm. The guy fired 2 shots back through the door and the badguys fled. No tactics used once again. The goodguy hit nothing.
 
my mouth is dry, my heart rate is fast, and I'm wishing I could leave.
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It's amazing how much FOF training and being involved in a gunfight compare. I have never felt like that shooting IDPA.
 
games

IDPA and IPSC are both games. As long as you have rules and keep score they are games. Neither are tactical training. What they bring are some competition, some stress, gun handling skills and fast mag changes. All of these would be valuable in time of need. I would really like to take some FOF training, take it to the next level. Please do not mistake IDPA or IPSC as training.

Thanks, George
 
but gufmun,

Isn't 'some stress, gun handling skills and fast mag changes' training?
Isn't practicing to aquire the ability to shoot fast, shoot on the move, shoot from many varied positions training? Obtaining the ability to shoot from concealment, shoot weak handed, shoot from behind cover training? All that is what you practice for to be in an IDPA match. Sure looks like training to me.
 
It is training. It is a game. Why can't it be both? Gunfight survivors have said it helped them win. We train to help us win.

Tim, You just described what I feel before a IPSC or Threegun match except for the wanting to leave part. I think many folks feel similar if you count the guys who forget the course of fire or miss targets all together. Thats a typical stress induced mistake.
 
IDPA and IPSC are both games. As long as you have rules and keep score they are games. Neither are tactical training. What they bring are some competition, some stress, gun handling skills and fast mag changes. All of these would be valuable in time of need.
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I think we may be getting bogged down in semantics here to a degree. As a game, it's a blast (no pun intended), as training goes? It's probably the second lowest level of it you could get short of just going to the range and having a gun safety course with range time done. For those of us who have never had any better training experience, it's a heckuva lot better than nothing for learning how to handle your weapon and move. I'm sure it's no substitute for better training.

That said, my IDPA experience has taught me at least the following:

1. How to be safe with my pistol.
2. How to draw while it's concealed reasonably well.
3. How to get shots on target at various pistol ranges 99% of the time.
4. That being in a real gun fight is a very, very bad idea! :D
 
Good post, Greg! It's obvious that the gun games and training both interact. It's when folks claim some exclusive property or fault in each, that we get an internet debate.

So this Saturday - IDPA - hope it doesn't rain and I'm bringing my shotgun also.

Then I go to the NTI later this month. Probably get killed again.
 
Sure as heck can't hurt.
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That is not the point. "It sure can't hurt" is very different than "It will help you."
Ayoob, Cirillo, Jordan, Hatchcock and several other people have in fact stated that competition was one of the top reasons they attributed to their ability to operate cooly under pressure.
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And thousands of others have been able to operate just as cooly without ever being in any competition. And yes, here we go again--NOBODY IS SAYING COMPETITION IS BAD! I think most are saying competition is no substitute for good, realistic training.
Pressure is pressure. It doesn't matter what the environment because the pressure comes from within, not without.
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Sorry, but way too much stress research suggests otherwise.
For those who haven't figured it out, the most important aspect of competition and combat is the mental aspect. But, so many in the industry don't acknowledge that.
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Think there might be a reason why so many in the industry don't acknowledge that??
Competion builds the mechanics and mental skills to enhance survival.
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No. Sorry, that is just flat wrong. Training builds the mechanics and skills. Competition MIGHT be able to test some of that training or skills.
IMO, most of what is practiced in IDPA is counter productive as well.
---snip---
Given the choices, I would still say that IPSC would provide you with the best skills to ensure your survival in a confrontation as a civilian.
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Of course, the IDPA folks would say just the opposite.
 
Sorry, but way too much stress research suggests otherwise.
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Please cite said research. Look at NASA's Apollo training program, look at the olympic training programs, look at the study done at ASU with the shooting team. Read the Force Science News articles. Most research in fact does say that stress can be controlled and even many of reactions that some claim cannot be.

Think there might be a reason why so many in the industry don't acknowledge that??
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There are 3 reasons:
1. They have a vested interest in selling their latest, greatest method, technique, tool or program.
2. The "if it was good enough for _______(whoever) it's good enough for me or the "well (insert favorite shooting authority here) if he doesn't say it's so, it isn't.
3. Ego. Most people in the industry cannot and will not accept new ideas well. Especially if they are outside of the box. Many studies show that the mind fires the same electrical impulses when someone visualizes completing a task as it does when actually completing the task. Sorry, but those who don't believe visualization and training the mind work are ingnoring reality.

No. Sorry, that is just flat wrong. Training builds the mechanics and skills. Competition MIGHT be able to test some of that training or skills.
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No. Sorry that is not wrong. Training establishes mechanics and skills. Applying those skills under pressure is what builds them. Most people (keep in mind this is a civilian arena) do not put pressure on themselves when practicing or training. Some don't know how, others don't want to. Also, when first learining a skill, you need to establish it without pressure first, then add pressure. Competition offers a type of pressure that is difficult to emulate elsewhere. However, FOF induces pressure as well.

You can choose to believe your experts, I'll believe mine. But don't say the facts don't exist.
What training should accomplish is to condition the mind to perform the tasks necessary for survival to the point where they do not require conscious thought. What competition does is to condition the mind to perform those same tasks regardless of environment.
 
And thousands of others have been able to operate just as cooly without ever being in any competition. And yes, here we go again--NOBODY IS SAYING COMPETITION IS BAD! I think most are saying competition is no substitute for good, realistic training.

Thosands david? Just as cooly? Thousands? You got anything to back that up? I'd like to see your stats on that!

I'm not aware of anyone ever providing any evidence to support that idea, at least as it relates to actual encounters. Handling pressure from a game does not automatically equal handling pressure in reality.

Askins wrote in his book that the pressure of matches was HUGE.

"For you see every pistol shooter must compete under a terrific head of steam. He is nervous, jittery, shaky, and unsure of himself. This is referred to as the "buck" short for buckage and was a terrible dilemma for all the competitors. Including myself. It did not matter if the gunner was the veteran of a dozen lethal gunfights when he got on the firing line, in what might be only a dinky club-sponsored pistol match, his knees would treble, his hand would shake, and his eyes would blur. "

Page 86, "Unrepentant Sinner", by Charles Askins.
 
Simunitions

Nothing gets the ole pucker factor like knowing there is someone else waiting to rounds on you if given the oppurtunity. With that being said, an IDPA rep came out to our LEA range and put on a demo for those of us interested in starting a pistol team. If I can ever get to a shift with Saturdays off, I can't wait to start shooting some competitions. The guy that came shoots in the Master? class, and I actually beat him on a couple of the stages he put on for us, so I hope to be competitive when my chance comes. There are definitely some pros to the shooting scenarios offered in the "games", they just don't really compare to FOF IMHO.
 
Felt a Simunition hit????? 'Hurts' dosen't NEARLY describe the pain. Makes a paintball feel like a hard slap on the back. It's a welt to the point of actually drawing blood. Feels like a red hot pair of vice grips got latched on to you and cant be removed.

Psycobable BS aside....it is simply indisputable that the presure felt to avoid that kind of pain FAR exceeds the pressure felt by a time clock. C'MON

Raging BGs RUSHING you to ACTUALLY HURT YOU ALOT is far more like a realistic situation. Force on force IS what a real life situation would be.....or BETTER be if your shooting at someone.

I genuinley think some people argue for arguments sake far too much.

How in the hell is ISPC or IDPA even CLOSE to FOF in real life training?

UNLESS you ARE the BG shooting at multiple unarmed targets that are trying to hide from you that is.

That said, I do see a value in developing and retaining muscle memory for proper and effecive weapons handling. Good prepatory training for FOF.
 
As a dumb kid my friends and I would shoot each other with BB guns with only 1 or 2 pumps. We would shoot for the legs. Kinda like old west gunfighters facing off. Once someone moved for their gun it was on. It was fun with pain. Blood blistered welts and all. I felt little or no pressure. I imagine that many would be more effected by FOF than competition. Being one who is effected by competitive stress to a higher degree than others I would have to say that looking bad in front of others or loosing to others makes me more nervous than getting a welt or two. I would rather get shot with simunitions than look bad or loose. Kinda hard to explain but I hate to loose and the embarrassment of looking bad combine to make me stressed.

If I thought I might be killed by my opponent prior to the encounter that would be really stressful. Competition and FOF are as stressful as you allow them to be. If your stress comes from pain then FOF will be more stressful. If your stress comes from within as Lurper suggested then both are equal.
 
True FOF TFL style:

The TFL Force on Force training institute today put on it's annual "Oh Crap" scenario. The results are as follows.

Upon encountering the situation:

5% simply left.
25% dialed 911 and waited for backup.
25% dialed 911 and went in guns blazing.
25% just went in guns blazing.
20% didn't bother with the gun.

:p
 
Haha, Greg.

I saw a guy catch a paintball in the man-balls during a FOF in Dallas. He did a funny dance for awhile.

In your list, you should have added:

Pulled out their laptop, ran to a wifi hotspot and asked TFL for advice before proceeding to take action.
 
Some things (and people) never change

Pressure is relative

Some people get more nervous in competition than others....I have always done it for fun and missed out on all the trembling and sweating...except on a hot day.

So for some...the thrill of competition may, in fact, help them cope with the stress of an armed confrontation

But the point is....being a competitive shooter does not mean that you will perform well in an armed confrontation

It also does not mean you you will do poorly...although there is some weird glitch where many (most) of the competitors seem to be reading that between the lines...must be a competition thing:p

I think the major point is that what makes you perform well in a gunfight are some of those intangibles that are hard to identify...forget about qualify

If they had empirical evidence that action A made for better fighters, you would see action A used comprehensively in training our fighting men

But despite all the studies and statistics and wonderful anecdotal evidence we all love

Incidentally, having some successful gunfighter say he thought his competition experience helped him is just that ....anecdotal....how would he know for sure?

It is still hard to predict who will do well in an armed confrontation

Or even whether someone will perform well consistently in multiple confrontations
 
I agree OBIWAN.

Furthermore I think that anything involving trigger time helps.

As far as FOF, I think that's more useful for training Small Unit Tactics to infantry squads, SWAT, ect.

Note I didn't say it's not useful at all for SD training, just that it's most useful for small unit tactics.

IDPA IPSC... Like I said anything involving trigger time helps. Obviously it's not the golden calf of training, there are many other important tools that can help as much or more than competition.

This post is worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
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