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Powder measure variances
- Thread starter JohnAengus
- Start date
double check and fine tune with the GemPro 250 to 40.84grains
40.84gr?? is that a misprint?? or are you actually measuring to .01 gr??
I don't have, and am not going to get equipment able to do that. .1gr accuracy has always been good enough for me.
I look at it like this, powder measures are like rulers. Or a tape measure, not calipers or micrometers. Expecting measurement accuracy to the nearest .001" from something marked in 1/8" or 1/16" is foolish.
Just my opinion here but I like to think it all depends.
Plus or minus .1 can be anywhere from 40.0 to 44.2 if your target is 44.1. Theoretically that is the accuracy of any electric scale that measures to .1 grains. I can post chrono records where that much deviation can result in a velocity difference of 60 - 80FPS spread and others where it would cause a 10 - 20 FPS spread.
Now if we are talking about 2 MOA @100, or even .2 MOA at 100 a 60FPS spread is of no matter in most cases. But take that same load out to 1000 yards and that 60 FPS difference could be the height of the ten ring. I have a .260 load that shoots .3 at 100 but can barely hold a MOA vertical at 600. Pistol is a entirely different thing. As long as you are over the power factor when competing then all is good unless you are on the top end of a load and push it .1 grains more than the gun can stand.
Now the goal of course is to find those wide nodes so that you can be off .1 either way and it will not matter, but to do that you need precision.
On the precision part of your post I loaded 40 rounds of Varget this morning using my Johnson measure and old M5 scale with the webcam. Now it is a given that a grain of Varget is about .02 to .025 gns. After some practice it is pretty esy to see where the needle is and reach into a container and finger trickle to weight. You find yourself thinking "ok the needle is about 1/4 the way between marks so I need two maybe three more kernels. I am pretty sure all those 40 I loaded are within .02 gns of their target weight even though the beam scale marks are in .1 increments
Plus or minus .1 can be anywhere from 40.0 to 44.2 if your target is 44.1. Theoretically that is the accuracy of any electric scale that measures to .1 grains. I can post chrono records where that much deviation can result in a velocity difference of 60 - 80FPS spread and others where it would cause a 10 - 20 FPS spread.
Now if we are talking about 2 MOA @100, or even .2 MOA at 100 a 60FPS spread is of no matter in most cases. But take that same load out to 1000 yards and that 60 FPS difference could be the height of the ten ring. I have a .260 load that shoots .3 at 100 but can barely hold a MOA vertical at 600. Pistol is a entirely different thing. As long as you are over the power factor when competing then all is good unless you are on the top end of a load and push it .1 grains more than the gun can stand.
Now the goal of course is to find those wide nodes so that you can be off .1 either way and it will not matter, but to do that you need precision.
On the precision part of your post I loaded 40 rounds of Varget this morning using my Johnson measure and old M5 scale with the webcam. Now it is a given that a grain of Varget is about .02 to .025 gns. After some practice it is pretty esy to see where the needle is and reach into a container and finger trickle to weight. You find yourself thinking "ok the needle is about 1/4 the way between marks so I need two maybe three more kernels. I am pretty sure all those 40 I loaded are within .02 gns of their target weight even though the beam scale marks are in .1 increments
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Plus or minus .1 can be anywhere from 40.0 to 44.2 if your target is 44.1.
Do you by any chance mean 44.0 to 44.2??
I understand +/- .1gr, what I don't see is weighing to a HUNDREDTH of a grain when scales go to TENTHS.
And how does this matter to my .30-30 or .45-70?? I drop powder a bit light for the charge I want, (IF the measure variation takes be outside my desired charge, if not, then I just use it as is,) and bring it up to the desired weight by trickling on a scale that reads to the nearest TENTH grain (.1).
The reason I went with the GemPro 250 for my rifle lloads , my powder charge is 40.8 of IMR 4064 then I started over thinking , is the charge closer to the low side or high side of .8 with the GemPro I can make it exactly 40.8 on the nose if I wanted , one average grain ( stick ) of 4064 is .02 . One day I'll get a chronograph to really see if it's worth it .
Do you by any chance mean 44.0 to 44.2??
yep, typo
@44Amp - powder load velocity changes are not linear. Going from a load of 43.9 to 44.0 may cause a velocity increase of 50 FPS but going from 44.0 to 44.1 may only give a increase of 5 FPS
keeping that in mind if testing for consistent velocity is the goal which test would you want to rely on
5 test rounds measured on a scale that has .1 resolution
44.1, 44.1, 44.2, 44.0, 44.0
or 5 test rounds measured on a scale with .01 resolution
44.10, 44.10, 44.11, 44.09, 44.09
now unless you shoot at 500 or above on a regular basis where velocity consistency can make the difference between a ten score and a nine or eight you have no reason to care
I load for one thing and one thing only F class. If I were loading hunting ammo or shooting 100 yard bench rest my goals, procedure, and equipment would be completely different.
Load for what you goal is. I would smoke the barrel on the finest hunting rifle in the world shooting a 20 round match,and no hunter in his rightmind would haul a 18 pound singleshot rifle on a elk hunt. A 45-70 might be great for shooting deer in heavy brush but would is not appropriate for shooting P dogs at 300 yards. The ammo is no different, load for your goal
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Load for your goal. Fine words, words to live by.
Can also be applied to forum posts and answers, but few people do. I know I go off track sometimes myself, usually in response to someone else going afield. SO, lets consider this...
The op said,
has, turned into this, 3 pages later...
Your experience in your field of expertise, and me in mine can be useful information, but if we're not focusing on answering the OP's questions, we aren't being as helpful as we might be, and we're just drifting the thread off topic.
So, here's my attempt to get back to the op...
I had a Dillion 450 for a few years, then got rid of it. So I'm vaguely familiar with how their progressives work. If your setup is dropping the powder you are using with an acceptable variance for your purposes, fine. IF not, then you either need to change to a powder that does meter more consistently, or change to a method of charging that gets you the consistency you want/need, even if that involves something other than a progressive press.
There's no free lunch...
Can also be applied to forum posts and answers, but few people do. I know I go off track sometimes myself, usually in response to someone else going afield. SO, lets consider this...
The op said,
I have the Dillon RL 550b and reload 9mm and 10mm for shooting at the range
has, turned into this, 3 pages later...
I load for one thing and one thing only F class. If I were loading hunting ammo or shooting 100 yard bench rest my goals, procedure, and equipment would be completely different.
Your experience in your field of expertise, and me in mine can be useful information, but if we're not focusing on answering the OP's questions, we aren't being as helpful as we might be, and we're just drifting the thread off topic.
So, here's my attempt to get back to the op...
I had a Dillion 450 for a few years, then got rid of it. So I'm vaguely familiar with how their progressives work. If your setup is dropping the powder you are using with an acceptable variance for your purposes, fine. IF not, then you either need to change to a powder that does meter more consistently, or change to a method of charging that gets you the consistency you want/need, even if that involves something other than a progressive press.
There's no free lunch...
44 AMP wrote:
If one wants reasonably accuracy, say +/- 0.1 grain from a powder measure, the quote above is the best advice one will get.
I use the RCBS Uniflow with the small cylinder for all my handgun loads and have no problem with Unique powder as long as I use a baffle and the "double tap" method of dispensing. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall going beyond the +/- 0.1 grain variance with any powder with which I've used the Uniflow and the consistent method described above.
My suspicion is that those using the progressive press cannot manipulate the powder measure with the uniformity as those of us who use a single stage press and the batch loading process (50 at a time and one step at a time).
My only point is that if you are turning out several hundred rounds of ammo at one time via a progressive press in a minimum amount of time, you shouldn't expect super accuracy in any of the components in your finished product. Don't worry about it; the ammo will be more accurate than your hold on the rifle/handgun is able to obtain as you are blasting away.
I personally use the Uniflow for all my handgun reloads using the method described above, and a beam balance scale for all my rifle reloads where accuracy of one minute or less is desired at 100 yards.
Not mentioned but also important is the uniformity with which the measure is operated.
If one wants reasonably accuracy, say +/- 0.1 grain from a powder measure, the quote above is the best advice one will get.
I use the RCBS Uniflow with the small cylinder for all my handgun loads and have no problem with Unique powder as long as I use a baffle and the "double tap" method of dispensing. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall going beyond the +/- 0.1 grain variance with any powder with which I've used the Uniflow and the consistent method described above.
My suspicion is that those using the progressive press cannot manipulate the powder measure with the uniformity as those of us who use a single stage press and the batch loading process (50 at a time and one step at a time).
My only point is that if you are turning out several hundred rounds of ammo at one time via a progressive press in a minimum amount of time, you shouldn't expect super accuracy in any of the components in your finished product. Don't worry about it; the ammo will be more accurate than your hold on the rifle/handgun is able to obtain as you are blasting away.
I personally use the Uniflow for all my handgun reloads using the method described above, and a beam balance scale for all my rifle reloads where accuracy of one minute or less is desired at 100 yards.
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I personally use the Uniflow for all my handgun reloads using the method described above, and a beam balance scale for all my rifle reloads where accuracy of one minute or less is desired at 100 yards.
I have RCBS Piggy Back 11 presses, I also have the Pro 2000, the presses came with Uniflow powder measures with two drums. I also have the Lil Dandy powder measures that I am impressed with. To go back further I have the Hollywood Gun shop measure and the B&M Visible, Ohaus and Lyman variations of the 55. In-between I have cam operated and powder measures THAT HAVE A dial-o-matic system. The Uniflow and Lil Dandy are the powder measures I use.
Scales, I have three sets of scales that are listed for lab use, my reloading scales outnumber my lab scales 3 to 1, to settle all differences between scales I have the Ohaus check weight set of 47 pieces.
F. Guffey