Potential Threat at Work

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I think this is a perfect example of Cooper's "condition orange". The trigger for this is less than most people think - that little nag that says - "Something is not quite right here - that person seems dangerous." You most definitely have crossed that line.

Workplaces that don't allow carry are a serious problem. I guess it's a personal moral question of how obligated you feel to follow rules, but the best job I've ever had wasn't vaguely worth dying for. If you're legally allowed to carry any the only thing you'd be violating is company policy, you might consider a small gun in some form of deep concealment carry where your gun can't plausibly fall out or be left behind - thunderwear, armpit band holster, etc - until the threat has passed.
 
I've ever had wasn't vaguely worth dying for. If you're legally allowed to carry any the only thing you'd be violating is company policy, you might consider a small gun in some form of deep concealment carry where your gun can't plausibly fall out or be left behind - thunderwear, armpit band holster, etc - until the threat has passed.
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No threat has being made, so its a big leap from some dodgy emails to breaking company policy because you are scared of a threat that has not being made. What is it about some in America that they can't seem to get on with it without seeing a threat in everything and carrying a firearm. A few emails like that would not cause me a second thought, i certainly not risk losing my job and reaching for a firearm. Some people do carry firearm here but that's because they are under real threat.
 
The guy was not hired, right? Many companies these days simply don't communicate with applicants--gone are the days of thank you notes as a courtesy to those not hired.

The way I see it--this could very easily backfire and threaten YOUR job if you push it enough and the HR folks feel it may be you sending out the warnings. BUT--if you have concerns for your's and others safety you have a right to express them to management--and you have the right to have them seriously considered. The company must provide what is reasonably considered a safe workplace and once notified of a potential threat could be potentially liable if something does happen and they totally ignored you. Negligent liability cannot be waivered away.

I'm no expert--but I would guess that by notifying management they are on the hook for being aware of your concerns--and from what I read background credit and legal record checks are now routine for new hires. If the company tries to ignore the issues to avoid implied liability--and you feel they are bad enough--you can find this information out for yourself and then notify the management. Once they are made aware--they are back on the liability hook again.

Most companies have their own "political hierarchy" so I would be careful in how you push this to the "command level." Finding a "sympathetic white knight" at upper management might be a good idea rather than being the isolated complainer who could be perceived as "lone whack job."
 
Your best bet is to clearly discuss your plan with your supervisor and the highest level manager you are comfortable speaking with......at the same time. Explain what you are going to do and how you are going to handle this. Take there input and get it done.

He is nuts, but as has been said, a firm clear no thank you, usually works.


Document every related interaction. You need to know direction given to you, by whom, what you did and said, and finally what that guy did and said.

You know the risks of arming up....balance your risk vs benefit. 'Nuff said. We can't tell you when violating company policy or state law is the right risk vs reward balance.

This is a gun forum.....
Example;
The last company I worked for. had such a "written policy. No firearms of any kind,, on company property. We had a skeet and trap range on company property and we use to keep our shotguns locked in our trunks; "No questions asked". One day, a Supervisor and department manager reprimanded one employee. That employee reacted in a threatening manner and sent out numerous E-Mails. After review and consultations, he was terminated. More threats followed and directed at the department manager. The manager in turn, started carrying, on company's property. At the end of a staff meeting, the department manager was putting on his coat and out fell his "little Friend". The other staff saw it as well as the company's CEO. A meeting soon followed and the CEO asked, "Now then, you forgot to leave your gun at home and it was just an honest mistake; Right??? !!!"
No sir, I purposely brought it and carry it for protection from the threats I've been getting. The manager was terminated on the spot and escorted off the property by security. ......
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Can we learn from this: DON'T DROP YOUR CCW.....EVER!
 
Can we learn from this: DON'T DROP YOUR CCW.....EVER!
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I disagree , what you should learn is don't bring a firearm into work if they are not allowed. At best you will lose your job, and depending where you work it could be illegal, imagine what would happen if you had a N/D injuring or killing a work colleague. I am surprised this type of advice ( advising someone to do something that could be illegal ) is not being challenged by staff.
 
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I disagree , what you should learn is don't bring a firearm into work if they are not allowed. At best you will lose your job, and depending where you work it could be illegal, imagine what would happen if you had a N/D injuring or killing a work colleague. I am surprised this type of advice ( advising someone to do something that could be illegal ) is not being challenged.
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It isn't being challenged because in only RARE instances is carrying a gun at work actually illegal.

As for the "imagine if you had an ND" nonsense, that would be an argument for never carrying at all. Folks carry properly every day and have zero problems. Even more folks carry outside of work. NDs do not come from carrying properly.
 
DNS said:
It isn't being challenged because in only RARE instances is carrying a gun at work actually illegal.
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For me it's misdemeanor criminal trespass. As is carrying in or on any state government property (excluding state parks and public lands), any school property, or any private property or business that has a "no firearms" sign.

Guaranteed termination of employment and loss of CCW if at work, probable loss of CCW if any other.
 
imagine what would happen if you had a N/D injuring or killing a work colleague.
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If you have an ND and it injures or kill someone, whether at work or strolling down a street, I assure you you will be losing your job! :eek: That should be the least of your concerns in this situation.
 
No threat has being made, so its a big leap from some dodgy emails to breaking company policy...
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Company policy isn't that big a deal when you get right down to it. The worst they can do is fire you.

The problem here is that violent people don't always make threats before carrying out violence. They do however often act in ways that violate various social norms either because they're unhinged, or because whatever moral failing makes them willing to hurt innocent people also spills over into other interactions.

The OP is right to be worried, and should consider what he can to do improve his own security and ability to respond to an attack. Guns happen to be pretty good at that.
 
- Less is more.
The more you engage him, the more fuel you give him to keep at it.
If this guy will just not go away, I agree wit blocking email, phone calls, and anything else.
Main thing is, don't continuously engage him.
Ignore him as much as possible.
Be brief, concise, too busy to talk, and ignore to the fullest extent.

- Your greatest weapon is between your ears.
If you think it is important enough to carry a gun at work, which is a last resort, then that means every possible step before that is worth it.
1. Notify all your superiors.
2. Notify Security.
3. Reach out and communicate with local law enforcement.
A. Ask and hear what they have to say. Maybe there is a way to document a legal record, without going the distance.
B. Request more patrols.
C. File an official complaint and restraining order.
4. Martial Arts/Self Defense.
5. What is legal that you can carry.
6. Gun kept in your car, if that is legal in your area.

- Document everything.
If worse came to worse, and you had to stand in front of a Judge, what is your list of fully documented steps that would show you did everything humanly possible under the law to protect yourself and co-workers.
 
thallub said:
Has the guy been informed that he did not get the job? If not someone needs to tell him: Then most likely he will just go away.
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+1

Simple solution. Have you HR department send him the following email.

"Sir or Madam:



We have received your application for the position of _________. After careful consideration, we regret to inform you that you have not been selected for this position.

We will retain your candidate file in our database and may inform you of job openings that match your profile if you selected this option. We also invite you to visit the Career Section on our Web site regularly.

We thank you for your interest in _______ and wish you all the best in your career.



Best regards,
Human Resources Department"
 
how about you carry at work and DO NOT have an ND or allow anyone to know your carrying. you have a job that you love and co-workers that are like family. You feel threatened enough about this "guy" to hit the boards on a gun forum of all places and ask advice about your personal safety. If I really cared about my co-workers and had a real gut feeling of a threat of violence against one of them or myself, I would carry a firearm. Are you telling me you cannot make it a week at work without guaranteeing that you won't have an ND? Whatever man, it's you life and your friends. I am sure it's nothing and life will go on, but if that's not the case, who knows what could happen to the lives and family's of these people you "care" about. Obviously, you only care enough to CYA and keep your job and hope someone else has the testicular fortitude and tools available if real action needs to be taken.

I love the comment about the restraining order, if he is intent on harming anyone in your company, that'll be just as useful and the "gun free" zone in Newtown, Conn.

If your work attire is professional, then you have some of the best options for carry modes. If it's dress casual, you may need to wear a button up with a under-shoulder. if it's tucked polo and you absolutely cannot be seen with a weapon, then you may need to make the small investment in a pistol suitable for ankle carry. I o agree though, that if you work in a government building/building with detectors than don't carry, but those places have armed guards anyhow so there WILL be a "good guy with a gun" if the need arises, no need for you to be that "good guy" if you have guards that are being paid for the pleasure. My job forbids carry and then sends us into the worst ghettos of downtown Atlanta with a truck that everyone knows has narcotics on it. I like my job, I love my partner, we have become family over the years and we have both agreed to get our permits and carry and keep it to ourselves.....why? because we both have a wife and young child to come home to. Lucky for us, we have not needed to use/brandish/draw our weapon on the job, but neither of us would hesitate even though it may be the end of several years of schooling and licensing. Would I be 100% surely canned if we protected ourselves, I am not sure, my bosses/owner seem to have at least one foot in the real world and understands what we are up against and our governor had the good sense to allow EMS/FIRE to carry as of this year, used to be illegal since they are technically on government property, GO NATHAN DEAL(this gov has stood up for our rights in so many instances it's unreal). although we are not police, it's not a stretch that someone would target any city worker in todays climate. Someone set his house on fire a couple years back, called 911, waited for the truck to arrive and ambushed them with semi-auto rifle fire. I don't like my job enough to die for it, I am not a soldier and shouldn't need to give up my constitutional rights of protection so my bosses can save a little coin on insurance/lawsuits.

From what we have heard, this guy probably isn't going to walk in with AK's blazing laying ruins to your beloved job. But I can say if my gut thought something was off and any possibility of armed violence could occur, I could find a place to carry a firearm and I could absolutely avoid an ND for a couple of days:rolleyes:. My .2c, obviously not on the same page as your thinking, so I wish you well and hope that this boils over and it's not someone you don't expect that snaps one day and wishes to bring violence upon your family of co-workers. This is just one guy and one incident, that you happened to be involved with, you never know who or what is going to happen at anywhere at any moment. Figure out for yourself if a company wide-email holds the same value as human life should an incident take place. obviously disregard everything I said if your work place has actual state/fed law forbidding carry, I am not condoning that, but that doesn't sound like it's the case anyway. good luck, stay safe and remember that you don't have to be the sheep or bow to rules that endanger your livelihood just because your boss/whoever has a wad over firearms, you can keep it discreet and keep it your dirty little secret, and i'll bet if it is ever needed and you save the lives of your co-workers and subsequently lose your job, your co-workers aren't going to stand idly by while you and your family starve after saving all their hides.
 
To my mind Kilimanjaro has the right approach.
There are reasons that HR departments exist. This is one of them.

Having said that, I do believe in the mantra of trusting your gut feeling (as opposed to giving in to paranoia).
If you really, truly, believe this guy is a threat, then I'd ask for either security to be very readily available on the day of the meeting or even broach the issue of your CCW with your superiors for that one day in the meeting.

You never know, if they say yes to carry for that one meeting you might be able to point out that it was quite reassuring and perhaps they'll want to revisit their policy as a whole.

What ever happens, pack pepper-spray.
 
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how about you carry at work and DO NOT have an ND or allow anyone to know your carrying. you have a job that you love and co-workers that are like family. You feel threatened enough about this "guy" to hit the boards on a gun forum of all places and ask advice about your personal safety. If I really cared about my co-workers and had a real gut feeling of a threat of violence against one of them or myself, I would carry a firearm. Are you telling me you cannot make it a week at work without guaranteeing that you won't have an ND? Whatever man, it's you life and your friends. I am sure it's nothing and life will go on, but if that's not the case, who knows what could happen to the lives and family's of these people you "care" about. Obviously, you only care enough to CYA and keep your job and hope someone else has the testicular fortitude and tools available if real action needs to be taken.
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Bit harsh, that, IMHO.

Firstly, as you pointed out: this is an open and public gun board. Would you air your intent to breach company policy on here?

Secondly, the OP also has a duty to his/her own family and losing your job is not the way to honour it.

I'm not the OP so I don't know how strong the cues are. Is it a case of "Jeez what a freak: he needs some human interaction coaching" or "The man is evil incarnate!"

We don't know but ignoring the wishes of our peers and employees is not something to be taken lightly, IMO.
Right or wrong, I think the OP is wise to not act rashly in this respect.

These emails may go on for months, not days.
What then? Flaunt the rules no end?

EDIT: All that said I did actually read the rest of the post (eventually :o) and you do go on to make a lot of the points I just have so no offence intended.

(note to self: read whole post, then answer!!)
 
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Does the company have any security or an active shooter plan? Layered security? Gates? Key pad entry points?

Be cautious with a restraining order. Tbese can escalate things.

I like the idea of an affirmative call to him by HR to politely inform him the position is filled.
 
From what you've said so far--you have a far-out applicant given to some dogmatic political theory.

Sounds to me like you guys haven't made it clear what the application process entails or when a decision has been made. He might even think that based on the nature of your business that his political views make him more qualified. I'd be careful about refusing his application based on his views alone lest he launches a discrimination suit.

I know you love your job and the people you work with--but so far it sounds to me like your HR people don't have a clue.

Personally, even bringing the notion of firearms into the discussion at this point is a mistake IMO.

PS--you might be able to use the political views as a reason for rejection/concern if the theories espoused are conclusively violent. Since you brought it up--are we talking something like anti-government libertarian or white supremacist?
 
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Frank Ettin - Some questions:
How large a company do you work for?

Is access to the premises controlled? With badges/key cards? Security guards? Are visitors logged in?

Does the company have an in-house legal department?

Is there a department responsible for risk management? Premises management? Company security? Loss control? Internal audit?

Does the company have any relationship with local law enforcement?

I've seen this sort of thing come up. Some things that have been done --
All contacts with the applicant should be documented, with complete records maintained.

The local police should be notified and a complete report, including copies of all emails, should be provided to them.

Existing security should be alerted to the possible threat. If there's a photo of the applicant, copies should be circulated. In the absence of a photo, a thorough description could help.

A plan should be put in place for contacting keep decision makers and the police if the applicant is seen on the search premises or approaching anyone on the hiring committee.

A restraining order is a good idea.

Those are all things I've seen done at large, well organized, security conscious companies when this sort of thing has come up. Most of the time nothing happens, and that's the desired result. Probably the most important things are (1) make a comprehensive police report to start a paper trail; (2) control access to the premises; and (3) have a plan if something happens.
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What Frank said and carry at work. I don't care about what rule or company policy says you can or can't. Carry at work and let no one know. I wouldn't even let my closest employees know I'm carrying. If you're ever going to need it at work it means you'll really need it more than you've ever needed anything in your life. Worst that can happen is you lose your job if anyone finds out (slim chance) and if they do because of a worst case scenario. Which in that case, good riddance. Cause you're walking away with your life. Court and lawyer fees are another headache. But I'm sure if hit the pause button at the moment of a force decision and you were asked to choose between death or court and lawyer fees, you'd choose to live.





I also completely agree with skizzums and his tone.
 
forward all the emails to higher ups and the HR dept. along with the "no guns aloud" memo.

Then write a little note stating you have been with the co. for 15 years, you consider everyone as part of your family and you are not too sure the man who wrote the emails got the memo about "no guns aloud". What is the co. doing to protect you from this potential threat?

Google "shooting in libbys, tx" read the story about the woman who watched her family shot by a crazy BG because she left her handgun in her car due to libbys gun ban at the time.
 
Google "shooting in libbys, tx" read the story about the woman who watched her family shot by a crazy BG because she left her handgun in her car due to libbys gun ban at the time.
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Oh man. I read that about Luby's* and saw the interview with the Miss Hupp. Saddest and most helpless feeling ever.


Here's a link about that.

Granted, it's not a place of business. The point is the whole "not allowed to carry" idea.


There's allowed and there's able. If I'm not allowed to, but I'm still able to (ie: no searches or metal detectors.) you better believe I'm carrying anyways.
 
Another thing to consider

It sounds t me like this guys computer and email have been hacked. I wouldn't be surprised if the political emails are the result of a virus on his computer sending email links to everyone in his address book, or that he has had email exchanges from. I have seen this happen before.
Just a thought
 
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