Police kill man in 'no-knock' raid on house

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On no knock raids and probable cause...

I was staying in Chula Vista, CA a few years back and the hotel my parents were staying in got a NO_KNOCK visit from the chulavista PD. NOT ONLY did they have the WRONG ROOM, the wrong family and the wrong car.. they had searched my Aunt's car before executing a no-knock on her hotel room pointing a shiny auto matic at her and her daughter. they then proceeded to kick in my parent's door in the adjoining room.. and demanded to know where i was. (i was at my brother's place getting ready for a fishing trip) These guys pointed a shotgun at my MOM.

SO, do you think our search and seizure rights were violated?

#1 they searched the Van without us present or asking permission.. only reason ? Van had out of state plates? Probable cause? Profiling? Yeah Right.

#2 They were looking for a hispanic teenager and his hispanic girlfriend. They already KNEW there was another person (me) missing from the room. I had paid for it with a credit card and shown my Colorado Driver's license to the clerk. (guess what I'm NOT hispanic and I was 27 or so at the time ) I have NO record. So why was I mistaken for a bench warrent bad guy? Why don't you ask him, he was in room 104. My family was in 204.

Oh what's that? He heard the commotion and got away?

(WHY oh WHY don't you see this kinda thing on Cops? 13 tyear old girl wets self when cops kick in the wrong door! next on america funniest constitutional rights violations!!!)

hasn't it been proven over and over again that no-knocks are more dangerous for LEO's AND civilians?

And BY THE WAY... there have benna half dozen "WRONG HOUSE" no knock entries in Colorado.. and at LEAST one ended up with a LEO dead.. along with a law abiding citizen who shot the LEO. He saw a guy dressed in black with a ski mask, flashlight and handgun break through his trailer door. bang bang bang. Two people are dead. The cops were looking for drugs. No drugs wrong house. SORRY.

When are we gonna figure out that as a society our "war on drugs" has caused these excesses in abuse of our FOURTH AND SECOND ammendment rights?

The shoot in Denver last week MAY have been "clean". But I for one am NOT convinced. We've had several examples of excessive force in Denver recently. Two made the national news. Ever hear of Scott Truax? Of Gill Webb? Look them up in the Denver Post Archieves.

Sorry to get on a rant guys.. I'm not against LEO's, rather the misguided policies that have caused us ALL heartache and legal dispair.

When anti drug laws have made the public fear any house or person that may have "guns" and any person that MAY have drugs gets a swat team up hios ass. Oh some one stole your car? wait it was used in a CROIME we'll ChARGE IT with a crime, Impound it and SELL it back to ourselves.

When are people going to realize that the WAR on DRUGS is taking away OUR freedom. as long as there is a war.. we will have more soldiers, more laws more czars, etc. You think its going to get EASIER? You think we are going to see less shootings?

Just some food for thought from a Denver Resident,

Dr.Rob
 
'No knocks' are wrong. The 'reasons for' are bull sh*t in the terms of freedoms that such a disgusting policy violates. If I wanted to rob or kill as a small unit, then a 'no knock' assault seems to make some sense. Though waiting until the victim comes out of their domicile would probably be safer for the thieves or killers. It would even be safer for police (besides it wouldn't make police into thieves and killers as 'no knocks' currently do in at least my eyes).
 
In re-reading THIS post, even I don't think it looks very friendly. I'm leaving it as is with the warning to take it in a friendly spirit as that is the way it is intended.

Rob, rereading I can see the analogy was probably clear as mud to someone used to more sophisticated debate--it was actually pretty simple. You and Ray challenged the opinions Sod and I put forth that no-knocks are little more than legalized murder (at least I put that forth, don't want to speak for Sod) by saying that you're LEO's, and you're good guys, so we should relax.
The analogy is that no-knocks are huge violations of my rights and also power that no cop, IMHO, should have. Teaching religion in a public school would also be grossly unconstitutional and would entail power that no public teacher, IMHO, should have. Just as you would not give teachers the power to do something you consider a gross violation of your rights simply because you think I'm OK (let's pretend, ok? ;) ) I am leery of letting other cops have the power to enter my home without warning and point weapons at me, then kill me if I make a move to resist, just because I consider you and Ray to be good guys. Your character doesn't enter into it, in other words; if Ghandhi asked me to sign a piece of paper allowing him to do such a thing to me and my family I would not do it. A right is a right.

As for your assertion that:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>These are not YOU type people we are talking about. They are irrational criminals. They are not going to reason things out or respond to options like YOU and I would. [/quote]
So everyone who gets served a warrant is an irrational criminal? I guess that means everyone who is arrested is an irrational criminal? Why even have trials if mistakes are never made? Again, while I trust you and all, I refuse to simply submit to what I consider a gross violation of my rights because you assure me that "We're not after you, we're after those other people--you know the ones. Not cooperative and rational like you." Sooner or later, playing the odds, it will be me.
Finally, you suggest that I not become the focus of a criminal investigation. As Dave told us, you can become the "focus of the investigation" by having an address close to the BG's. Besides, what if I'm being investigated for the crime of owning guns? And before anyone calls me paranoid, ask the Lone Ranger about that score (the guy from Britain, not the guy with the mask--I'm not THAT paranoid :) )

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron

[This message has been edited by Gwinnydapooh (edited October 04, 1999).]
 
I heard the term following orders a number of times in this thread.Thought that went out after the Nuenburg trials.
beemerb
 
Rob,

I believe the key word you used is, "potentially".

I have heard this word bantered about in our congress when they are considering new gun laws, new insurance laws, new business laws, new driving laws...

Who is to apologize for the dead innocent that lies at their feet, and the bereaved family that has been terrorized by those who shot the one trying to defend them?

There is no amount of money that can bring back the dead.

No-knock warrants bestow far too much power, with, many times, fatal outcomes.

I do not feel safer as a citizen when the LEA's have this power. To me it is a gross violation of the 4th amendment.

Are these issued because of impatience?

There have to be better ways to collect the evidence and arrest the guilty.


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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
"...everyone served a warrant is an irrational criminal..."

NO..... My premise was that anyone who is the subject of a No-Knock Warrant situation. People who get a warrant for a bad check and are released on a summons might be irrational criminals, but are probly just decent folk who made a mistake. I see a huge difference. Tru No-Knock warrants are incredibly rare, they are hard to get and you really have to have a good reason.. No COP has the authority to execute one until after a judge or magistrate has reviewed the evidence and approved the action. The "power" is not in the hands of the LEOs.

But, Gwinny, I do think you are OK. ;)
 
Well, statisically, in regard to all the activities a particular LE office does, they may be rare....but they all are publicized; you hear or read about them every other day and half the time they are bogus.
And when they are bogus, the innocent [/i] LE victimized[/i] party still has a world of grief. Further, when LE makes a mistake and its known...they fight in court to not have to pay damages.

A bunch of ninjas bust into your place in the wee hours and wake you up....you may survive if you choke and freeze, and if the ninjas are cops; then again you may not. If the ninjas are regular bad guys, you may or may not survive by choking and freezing.

Seems to me the difference is that if you are aware and react fast, a gunfight may drive off the real bad guys....however if they are cops, they will stay and kill you. So, how hard is it to surround the place and starve the suspected criminals out? Oh yeah...it has to make the news and reporters are impatient...or maybe the reporters will find out the cops have the wrong place...oh my that could be embarrassing


Another thought re rare: the incidence of legal and law abiding gunowners commiting gun related crimes is very low; yet apparently its sufficient to drive a national movement to control every gun....I'd say the same argument has merit in banning dynamic entries.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC
"....Starve the Suspected Criminals out."
Well lets see there are 10 Certified LEOs in this County. 13 IF you count the State Troopers that live in the area. Not exactly enough for a Siege.

Any evidence that can be destroyed will be BEFORE they surrender. In the mean time no one is watching the rest of the County, or Cities/towns.

This seige will also make it nessassary to remove any nieghbors from thier houses as they will be in the BGs field of fire. What about their rights. They didn't do anything wrong or even suspected to be wrong.

I think No Knocks are bad tactics, and Constitutionally shakey. There is one question I'd like to ask of the Non LEO, Citizens (not subjects, not civilians)
You have Probable Cause, that a former felon, has evidence from a robbery/murder at a local store. Information suggests that he is armed with a 12 ga Shotgun and a .45 handgun. He has made the statement that he will not go back to prison but will fight to the last. You have a valid search warrant, the right house. YOU are the Lead Officer on the entry team.
The door isn't locked.
HOW long will you wait before entry, after you Knock and Announce?
 
Raymond,

Assuming ALL of those criteria are met, then by all means, GO!

It's the mistakes, that seem to happen all too often, that make me wonder just how well thought-out and researched some of these "raids" are.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
I think Ray has raised a very interesting point, from what I read in Gun&Weapons in teh search and siezure column, there is only about 5-10 seconds difference in a no-knock and a "regular" warrant. Well, my house is not all that big but it takes ma a lot longer than 10 seconds to get up from the couch, call the dogs off the front door, and walk to open the door. So if my address was on a regular search warrant and 10 seconds after the knock and announce the door is kicked in and people pour in I still have a problem.

I recall the news story posted in TFL about the DC cops that raided a guys house with a high risk team because a neighbor saw blue barrels in the garage. Thought they were bomb making material. What??

There is a lot more to the topic than a discussion about if there is adequate control through judges issuance of no-knock warrants.

I would like to see a more open examination of the queations about the need and effectiveness of the tactics used to serve warrants in general.

Rob would you like to lead on that?

Noel
 
Both John and Noel have brought up the crucial idea....let's discuss this in depth. No more of the sound-bites like officer safety, etc.

1) Why are there so many mistaken raids? What is the criteria to determine that this particular suspect and/or locale is justifiable for dynamic entry?
Raymond tomed an ideal situation (known felon, threat making, etc)...however most don't meet these criteria...e.g. Pedro Obregon, Mr. Peacock(groundskeeper), the Compton old man from 2 weeks ago, etc ad nauseum.
2) Why the need for publicity and media presence, and the subsequent "trial in media" at the scene before the cops even know they have the "right" person?
3) Given that there are 60+ million "legal" gunowners in this country, why do cops think its so unreasonable to be confronted by a gun after they have just invaded a home?
4) When a mistake is made and proven, why are these LE agencies so loathe to accept responsibility and accountability and financial renumeration?

I have a lot more questions

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Raymond,

How long would you wait before leaving a residence on a death notification (cops still do that, don't they?) without a response to your knock? You would wait the same amount of time.
 
hmmmmm if its the right house.. if its the right guy... arrest him on his way to 7-11 where you can SEE that he's NOT carrying a shotgun (or say on his MORNING JOG ;) sound familiar?) he doesn't wanna go back?? he's VOWED REVENGE on society? (I think that's his FIRST amendment right unless he's made a specific threat to a person, which is assault.)

There seems to be a LITTLE to much gung ho "you are the point manon an entry team" going on here . The point of this thread was SHOULD there be such entries?

We have to remember that the police are not supposed to be judge jury and executioner in our system. I don't want to tie thier hands in getting thier jobs done, but it seems if prosecutors and judges (elected officials) did THIER jobs we wouldn't need more cops and more warrants.

Law abiding citizens (meaning those innocent until proven guilty) are supposed to be given the SAME treatment in the eyes of the law. Making our law enforcement teams act more like "military" units IGNORES this idea.

Now we all know I'm not talking about the situation in which a cop arrives and catches someone "red handed". What we are talking about is your 4th amendment rights.

Here in colorado we have the notorious "make my day" home protection law.. which states if there is someone in your home that does nnot belong there and you consider a threat, you have the right to use deadly force against them. You see why "unnanounced" entry is a BAD idea here?

No Knock = no justice

Dr.Rob

"Freedom is more vital than a Job"
 
Prichard,

I'll tell you what. You lead the raid, by your standards. I'll do the death notifacation. Does your wife and family have a faviorite minister/rabi/guru/ect. I can take with me to your house?

I have stood outside a door with a warrant for several minutes on low risk, raids. The evidence I was looking for was next to impossible to destroy, and the people/crime were known to be nonviolent.

Would you do that on a case where you knew of had information that there would be risk to your life just from showing up?

If I am delivering a Death or Serious illness notifacation, the person I'm going to see is not likely suspected of ANY crime. But in the pretext you put it I should treat everyone the same.

That logic would have me never give Traffic warnings, as I sometimes write citations, or vica versa. Should I draw my sidearm on everyone because I did on a man that attempted to run over me with his vehicle? Or maybe I shouldn't have threatened his life and let him run me down because I need to treat him the same as a law abiding Citizen? But then who would have delivered the death message to my wife and kids.

In the real world not all people act the same. Not all people are treated the same for various reasons. Fair and same are not interchangable. Most LEOs attempt to be fair, but being that we are human, (Supprised?) we don't always succeed. that is why there are courts. The Idea is to bring them to the court Alive, with myself in the same condision so the court can decide if the suspect is Guilty or not.

That is why I Disagree with No Knock raids, if I hear the door crash in first then nothing else that is said has any validity, I will believe it is an attack and respond as if it were. Hearing, Police!, Search Warrant!, may not be pleasant, but at least I have some information to act or not act on.

[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited October 05, 1999).]
 
Raymond,

You're doing a fine job, and I believe that you would be the first on your team to feel the heart wrenching guilt and shame of serving a no-knock warrant on the wrong house/individual, if things went as badly as they could.

I hope you have not taken my remarks as a disparagment against you.

----

To all,

Didn't someone post something about house raiding gangs that would announce at the door that they were the police before busting in?

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932




[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 05, 1999).]
 
Dr. Rob
I don't have enough for an Arrest warrant that is why I got the search warrant in the first place.
I have probable cause to believe there is likely to be evidence of a crime at his house. Not That he committed the crime.
I agree that if this was an arrest I could wait until he exited the house. You wouldn't mind real bad if I had my duty weapon out when I arrested him would you.

As to the First Ammendment, I have the right for example to say. Everybody that uses the letters Dr., DOC or Doctor on the internet should be shot on sight. It is not a threat directed at anyone in preticular but it might make you a little nervious if you expected to meet me the next day. :)

Should searches be conducted? Obviously the Founders knew they would be nessassary or else they would not have made any rules for their conduct in the Constitution's 4th Ammendment.

Will there be high risk searches? As long as there as evil people.

Are no Knock Raids Okay? NO. They are unsafe. Better to lose evidence than a life. Be it inocent Citizen, a LEO, or even a Criminal.

But raids AKA High Risk Warrant Service, are a nessassary part of Law Enforcement.

Question how many "raids" go without a problem on the right house and without shots fired. You only hear about the ones where something goes wrong.

Gee that's kinda like the millions of law abiding gun owners the Press never talks about. Or the thousands of times that an Honest Citizen stops a crime with a weapon. Seems the press only reports on them when there is a mistake made by the Citizen.
 
Raymond, I was just referring to what I believe would be a reasonable amount of time before legally breaking and entering.

(All 'right' and 'wrong' following are in reference to opinions on civil liberty issues. 'You' is in reference to LE in general.)

You are serving a warrant. If you don't 'no knock', then you wait. You have to wait a reasonable amount of time or it is still a 'no knock' as far as I'm concerned.

Everyone is the same in one way: innocent until proven guilty.

Being a cop apparently s*cks. Doing it right apparently s*cks more. It does so because doing it right is in reality more dangerous than doing it wrong. Personally I would feel much more comfortable about my safety and the safety of my fellow workers doing it the wrong way. And I would probably argue that the wrong way is best if it were my job. But it would still be wrong.
 
Prichard,
Reasonalble amount of time is not "set in Stone".
That which may be reasonable in one instance is too long in another.
I see a possible Drunk Driver, I can detain him for further investigation. In Iowa about 2 hours is considered a maximum Reasonable time.
However if the person stopped is going into Insulin Shock 2 hours is no longer reasonable, and becomes life threatening.

The Fact is this:
What is a Reasonable amount of time depends completely upon which side of the bathroom door you are. :)
 
Interesting points Ray.

So in the scenario you've created you have no arrest warrant.. no evidence.. (which is why you need a search warrant). What criteria can you use to get a "probable cause search" approved.

How could a judge POSSIBLY justify the risk to the LEO's and civilians when NO evidence exists other than.. that guy is a BAD guy? Doesn't SOMEONE have to file a complaint?

As to the argument "you never hear about the good ones.. well if ONE INNOCENT CIVILIAN is killed, how does that stack up to how many pounds of coke, or grass or whatever siezed? Certainly the two cannot be compared. how many kilos is an innocent life worth?

Of course you have the right to draw your duty weapon in the course of your job in enforcing the law. Its the LAW itself I'm calling into question.

Yes some searches were to be expected.. but remember the 4th amendment is against "unreasonable searches". This kind of heavy handed enforcement smacks of britain's anti terrorism laws.. what's next a suspension of due process? The constitution is there not to protect individuals FROM each other, but from the excesses of THE GOVERNMENT.

I'm sure in legal battles over no knocks endless cases from early american law were cited, and there are lawyers on both sides who understand this far better than any of us. But understand, we 'civilians" are getting pretty jaded, when in the course of fulfilling political promises for the "war on drugs" or being "tough on crime" WE end up in the cross fire.

My two cents and I'm off my soapbox for now.

Dr.Rob
 
A whole bunch of good points floating around out there. Let me start by addressing DC's concerns:

1) Why are there so many mistaken raids? What is the criteria to determine that this particular suspect and/or locale is justifiable for dynamic entry?

I disagree with the premise that there are "so many mistaken raids".. Yeah, ONE mistake is too many, but as a percentage, I really don't think they are very common. I'vr never heard of one in any of the jurisdictions with which I am personally famaliar.

2) Why the need for publicity and media presence, and the subsequent "trial in media" at the scene before the cops even know they have the "right" person?

I don't know a single cop that wants any media presence at the scene of a raid.. or ANY scene for that matter. You'll have to address this question to one of the scanner-jockey Cross-Pen-Commandos down at the Daily Planet.

3) Given that there are 60+ million "legal" gunowners in this country, why do cops think its so unreasonable to be confronted by a gun after they have just invaded a home?

I don't know any that do think it is unreasonable to expect it. In fact, most of the people that are the targets of these raids are part of the Millions of ILLEGAL gunowners in this country and the tactics used in the raid are used precisely because of the possibility of being confronted by a firearm.
The LEGAL gun owners are why Police Officers are trained to IDENTIFY themselves as such whenever they approach a home/car/person under 98% of the circumstances in LE work. We don't want to get shot.

4) When a mistake is made and proven, why are these LE agencies so loathe to accept responsibility and accountability and financial renumeration?

How much financial renumberation will it take to replace a dead person? What level of accountability beyond individual grief and regret (which can never be imposed by a court) do people want. Should an LEO who kills by mistake while on the job be treated the same (or worse) than a punk who shoots someone during a robbery? I certainly think not. I know cops who have killed people that didn't need to die. I believe that for a long period of time the only thing that distracts them from constant grief is the fact that they have to defend themselves from the jackals.


I think that Raymond is handling many of these questions very well. I agree 100% with his comments on "Reasonable Amount of Time" and "Differences between Raids and other LEO-Citizen Interactions".
Raymond did an especially perfect job addressing the obviously flawed idea of "Starving Them Out"...

Like I said earlier, there are times when we need to catch someone in an act or with something, which requires surprise. That can't always be done when he is walking into the 7-11 and clearly does not have a shotgun. I wish it could be, but some criminals aren't incredibly stupid.

Noel,

It is hard for me to comment on "why" a particular warrant was issued. I can be pretty sure that anything you hear in the press is going to be partially correct at best, but I feel like that is a weak argument. The reality is that I cannot make an educated comment about any particular warrant that I am not familar with.
Getting a warrant, of any kind, is not like hitting the McD's drive thru and placing an order. All warrants are based on probably cause and all have to be signed off on, by a NON-LEO. It seems odd to me that "Nieghbor Saw Blue Barrels" would be grounds for a no-knock warrant, but I cannot say for sure that it didn't happen. IME, that would not be the case. Furthermore, I can easily imagine a scenario where that was ONE of many factors leading to the warrant, and I can HEAR the soundbite "The Raid by Local Law Enforcement's Special Operations Team was precipitated by a watchful nieghbor who saw the blue barrels in Mr. Smith's Garage." It just flows so smoothly from the talking head, doesn't it? ;)




------------------
-Essayons
 
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