Police kill man in 'no-knock' raid on house

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dZ

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this one is a difficult topic around here
lets keep it civil...

http://www.denverpost.com/news/news0930c.htm
By Sean Kelly
Special to The Denver Post

Sept. 30 - Police shot and killed a man Wednesday during a "no-knock'' drug raid on a home in
Denver - the second fatal shooting by a Denver police officer in just over a month.

SWAT officers stormed the house at 3738 High St. about 1:50 p.m. looking for crack cocaine.
In an upstairs bedroom, the man pointed a gun at officers, Sgt. Tony Lombard said. At least two
officers opened fire.

"This is an extremely dangerous situation for a police officer to be in,'' Lombard said. "You
think you have the element of surprise, but you don't necessarily.''

A second suspect was unarmed and taken into custody by police without incident, Lombard said.
Neither man's identity was released.

Investigators were still searching the home for drugs hours after the shooting, Lombard said.
The officers involved were taken to headquarters to be questioned by homicide detectives - a
routine procedure, he said.

"Obviously, we fired shots. Now we're trying to determine if there was an exchange of
gunfire,'' Lombard said. He said he did not know how many shots were fired at the man.

Mike Cox, a landlord who has owned property on High Street for nine years, was working on a
rental home in the next block at the time of the shooting. He watched as officers stormed the
home.

"Maybe eight cop cars pulled up in front of the house,'' Cox said. "They were wearing all black,
helmets and everything.''

Cox said SWAT officers searched in and around the house for about 10 minutes before shots
were fired.

"Then I heard at least six or eight shots,'' he said. "It sounded like they were all from the same
type of gun, like a semi-automatic. It was just bang-bang-bang.'' Cox said he did not know the
residents of the home and that they had been in the neighborhood for only a month or two. Their
gray home, fronted by a brick and wroughtiron fence and shaded by large trees, was not
particularly known as a problem in the area.

"I don't know much about them, really,'' Cox said. "This really isn't too bad a neighborhood,
and I've seen it getting better. I'm glad they'll be out of here.''

Computer records indicate the home is owned by Alfredo and Victoria Gonzalez of Denver. It
was not clear Wednesday whether they live there or rent it. Neither could be reached for
comment.

In late August, Denver police shot and killed Steven Evilsizer after they said he lunged at them
with a knife during an arson investigation in the man's home.

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will you stand with me in DC on 10-2-99?
http://www.myplanet.net/jeffhead/LibMarch
 
between the swat teams atf ect. this is happining all to often its getting way out of hand do you know if in this case weatheror not they were in the right location for the raid warrent just noticed three days and im senior meb. what are the criteria for this ------------------
oneshotonekill

[This message has been edited by zip (edited October 01, 1999).]
 
what i heard was they had an informant make a drug buy at the house

when they served the warrent they found no drugs...

dZ
 
Sounds like it was a clean shoot.

They didnt mention aiming at little girls or anything obviously wrong. Also sounds like they had good PC for the warant too... They made a buy at the house...
Looks clean to me - from looking at the information here.
This is where you really need "All The Information" you can get. 8 shots? Not too bad - I very well could have fired 14 myself. The real question is this:
Of those 8 shots - how many hits?
And of those hits - how many are "good hits"?



------------------
Not all Liberals are annoying... Some are Dead.
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
my thoughts exactly sounds clean they were working on there own apparently fairly good info the guy just got ride of the drugs at least this one was not some innocent famaly or old man ect as many others have been

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oneshotonekill
 
Okay people here goes. For those of you that don't know me I've been a working LEO for over 19 years, Ive been on numorus High Risk Raids in that time. Often lead man on the entry team.
As has been said, It would be nice to have all the facts. But I have a BIG problem if the Cox's statement is even close to correct.

Quote, "Cox said, Swat officers searched in and around the house for about 10 MINUTES BEFORE shots were fired." Emphises is Mine.

High risk raid tactics. (I'm only hitting the high points) In the first 30 seconds team aproaches door, check lock, Knock and announce (ie.Police Search Warrant), break door if needed, enter, turning all compliant occupants over to back-up team to be SEARCHED and HAND CUFFED. Deal with Noncompliant occupants as needed, and leave for back-up team. Sweep all rooms and closets for Occupants.

In the next two, to three minutes check Closets and small hiding places and perpare to check upstairs (Move and Cover Operation) and or basement.

Total time needed to clear a large house about 4 minutes MAX.

Only after all occupants are searched and Cuffed, and arraingements made as to where subjects will be held during the search (in house, in Police Cars, etc.) will the search start.

If they were there 10 minutes before gunfire started somebody messed up.

[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited October 02, 1999).]
 
As a 19 year LEO veteran - you know as well as I do, that witnesses can often mess up a whole lot of important details. "10 minutes" could have been 4 minutes easy. And if it was a big house with multiple floors and lots of nooks and grannies... could have taken a little more time...

But this discussion is without solid facts... I would like to read the reports before making any comment... but as I am not in that loop - will say this... in the face:
Clean.

------------------
Not all Liberals are annoying... Some are Dead.
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
I don't want to start a flame war with LEO's on this forum--I really do respect LEO's. At least, I respect most of you a lot more than the corrupt LEO's in my hometown.

BUT. . . . I don't understand how any "shoot" can be "clean" when you enter a man's house by breaking down his door with no warning and then shoot him when he attempts to resist. I still don't understand how a no-knock can be Constitutional--sure seems unreasonable to me to expect that if you break into a man's house and point multiple weapons at him, he won't respond in kind. LEOs know that, and they know that once he does point a gun at them, there will be no option but to kill him.
Therefore, it seems to me that a no-knock is undertaken with the understanding that a certain number of the suspects are being manipulated into doing something that will allow (or force) cops to kill them. How can anyone use a word like "clean" to describe this?

------------------
Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Gwinny

You're not cooperating. We're supposed to be undergoing desensitizing.

It's alright for LEOs to be giving up the service and protection bit for a more military-style posture. Men in black ninja suits, in mass numbers, saving an unsuspecting and endangered public from the evils of a two-bit hood. I say, blow his ass to kingdom come. Please, more ninjas to protect me. I'm helpless. Please save me. Oh, great god of the Black Ninjas, may all the sacrifices made to you be "clean."

Gee, Mr. Tony Lombard, sergeant, sir, sounds like it was a more dangerous situation for the suspect to be in.

Would the LEOs really plant some cocaine if they had to?
 
George,
I did say IF Cox is close to correct, I do know how inacurate eye witnesses can be. I also know that at times they are very good. So on the face I say: More investigation is needed.

Gwinny,
I too hate no knock warrants, the create more danger than they prevent. Notice I said knock and Anounce even on High Risk raids.

Sodbuster,
I must be your worst nightmare. I'm a pro Second Amendment LEO. Guess I just want to be sure I always have innocent citizens to shoot huh?
And I'm so brazen I don't even bother with a mask, I normally wear dark blue, so they don't know I'm one of those evil "Ninjas". And I tell you I'm comming because "resistance is futile" :)
 
Raymond

Thanks for your comments. I was laughing before I even saw the smiley face, I knew you were being facetious. It's nice to know such men as you are in LE.
 
Sod,

There are at least two of us. In fact, there are a bunch of us here at TFL.

Want to meet some more? Join the Law Enforcement Alliance of America.

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-Essayons
 
Rob, Ray, RobRay--

I don't doubt that you're the good guys and I don't mean to cast aspersions on good cops--but I do think a lot of cops need to examine their ready acceptance of no-knocks with overwhelming force as a "clean" tactic. I can understand the "war on crime" attitude but I think it's going to be our undoing.
Besides, no offense, but I can't judge all cops by the way TFL members do the job. If the cops in my town are allowed to carry out no-knocks, I will sadly have to ASSUME that at least some are "dirty" since I know as surely as possible that most of our officers are "dirty." The chief is another matter--I'm sure about him. Sad to say, guys, but not all cops can be trusted.
Think if you decided not to oppose full gun registration because you knew several good, dedicated, and righteous BATF agents (they do exist, you know.) What? You wouldn't do that?
I'm a student teacher, I'll be certified by May, and I think most of you think I'm a pretty good guy. So if someone asked you if you'd mind terribly much if teachers had the power to teach religion, what would you say? Would you allow some teacher in Massachusetts that kind of power because you trusted ME not to abuse it?
I hope not. Again, this should not be taken as a flame for the two of you. It's not you I'm worried about--it's a tactic I consider dirty and unconstitutional, and the growing acceptance of its use as "clean."

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
In VA there is no such thing as a "no-knock" warrant, so you can rest assured that I will not participate in one (at least the way things are right now)...
The reason for no-knocks 90+% of the time is officer safety, the other times they are used to prevent the possible destruction of evidence.


As far as comparing the execution of a no-knock warrant and the teaching of religion, you have completely lost me. If your point is that not every cop should be allowed to participate in them, don't worry, most don't.. even in states where they are allowed. The ones that do are often among the most trained and most respected officers in their departments. To attempt to stay within your analogy, I offer the following:

If you want your kid to be "taught" religion in school, don't send him to a public one AND If you don't want to be on the recieving end of a no-knock warrant, try not to become the subject of a major criminal investigation. I'd be willing to bet a lot that only a very small percentage of people involved in such "raids" have not be involved in significant criminal activity prior to the search/arrest.
 
Rob;

Please expound on how no-knock enhances officer safety. Not harassment, but the only reason for no-knock that I can even dream up is preventing the destruction of evidence, yet you tell us that is the case in only around 10%?

If I'm watching too many movies or something just say so, but it seems to me as though by the time you have around 10 jacketed, helmeted, black-clad officers with subguns at the scene, the safest thing for the officers is the old rules, ie, "You are surrounded, come out with your hands up." Not to even mention safer for the citizen inside (innocent until proven guilty).

How can it be safer to enter a home in the middle of the night or whatever with much screaming and yelling and confusion, explosions and flashes, guns and sinister looking strangers everywhere, where the LEOs do not even know where the suspects are or how many are there when they begin?

Preserving evidence I understand as a reason (didn't say I LIKE it, just understand), but safety is beyond me at this point, for anyone involved.
 
I personally feel there are better ways to obtain evidence.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
I'm not an LEO, and I have known only a few as friends over the years, so I really don't have much of a handle on the LEO side of this issue. That said, I believe that no-knock is a thinly disguised, unconstitutional abuse of police powers. The 'safety of the officers' rationale makes no sense to me (although the flushing of evidence does).

I believe that the departmental policies that allow no-knocks not only put the cops in greater danger than conventional entries would, but also make on-site executions the rule rather than the exception. I'll only hint at the risks of forced entry into a house at the wrong address, or what happens when there are family (kids) in the house when the door is broken in by guys wearing black.

Sorry, LEOs, but no-knocks are wrong, and they get people killed (good people as well as bad). Is the possibility of drugs really enough of a reason to put everyone involved in such danger?

db
 
No disrespect to the LEO's of the world, considering most are just doing what they're told by superiors, but I have to agree with Dave B and JohnAZ. No-knocks are a fatal shooting waiting to happen.

Having said that, it seems that this discussion boils down to the "War On Drugs", versus the "War On Criminals". Which is better. According to our current administration, the war on drugs far outweighs the war on criminals. Better to serve a no-knock on Fred and Ethyl with a bag of weed than spend the bucks required to put enough LEO's on the street to bust the real bad guys.

Dago
 
C'mon guys...... If you wanted to take a potentially dangerous person into custody would you rather burst in on him while he is sitting ont he couch watching TV (or better yet, asleep in bed) or would you rather knock on the door and inform him the the Po-Leece are there to take him to jail for the next 15-20 years ????

These are not YOU type people we are talking about. They are irrational criminals. They are not going to reason things out or respond to options like YOU and I would. If you have a violent repeat offender who KNOWS he is dirty and KNOWS he is going away for a long time if he gets taken in, do you really think he is going to respond to a knock with "Oh, gee, Cops are here, guess I better open the door and get cuffed." If you do think it would be anything like that, you are incredibly wrong.

In places where no-knock warrants don't exist, or where the BG is not seen or the layout of the house is not known, we can try to aprehend them on their way to a car or out of a public building.. but often time we need to take them into custody while they are in a house with evidence or while they are conducting business inside a building, so the "they should've grabbed david koresh in town" argument doesn't always work.

Like I said, just ask yourself if you would wnat to give a serious threat any more warning than is necessary.
 
How does giving the BG no warning (at least up until the time his front explodes) safer for the police. I can imagine my own reaction to such a forced entry - it would not be passive. As I wrote above, the noKnock is primarily designed to intercept evidence (DRUGS), not to lessen the risks for anyone involved.

We don't need no steenking flames, but the LEO community's efforts to explain all kinds of strange behaviors as 'following policy' don't ring true. In my opinion, most issues like this thread's, or instances where police shoot a BG 10 or 20 times to 'stop' him, are indicative of a LEO mindset that allows, and even encourages summary executions.

Here in Colorado there have been several police killings in the last 5 years that seemed to me to be at best police overreactions, if not murders. Invariably, the officers involved are returned to duty after a respectable length of time.

I continue to have great respect for individual LEOs, but I question the policies that justify the killing of anyone who does not comply with - even - unlawful orders. I'm a middle class white guy living in a semirural area, so I'm pretty safe. It's been bothering me that these killings seem to be done in my name.

db
 
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