Police can demand ID, high court rules

The police are under no obligation to call a supervisor whenever they are requested to by a citizen.
Of course not. Just as there's no obligation for a police officer to protect my life. But would you call your boss if asked politely (assuming he was not otherwise occupied, of course)?
The advice I've always seen for people who are uncertain as to an officer's credentials or legal authority has been to ask the officer to call his supervisor.
It's not a crime to be drunk in public. No reasonable suspicion there either.
It's an infraction. Is that not covered?
By the way, if you wanted to question someone do you think you might be able to come up with some reasonable suspicion? Admit it or not, I've seen it in action.
 
But would you call your boss if asked politely (assuming he was not otherwise occupied, of course)?

If I were on the road, probably not, I'd give you directions to the station.


It's an infraction. Is that not covered?
By the way, if you wanted to question someone do you think you might be able to come up with some reasonable suspicion? Admit it or not, I've seen it in action.

It's not even an infraction around here. Drinking on a public street may be, but being intoxicated isn't. If I wanted to question someone, I would question them. If I wanted to compel them to identify themselves, and there was no reasonable suspicion, I wouldn't lie. Either reasonable suspicion is there, or it's not. I have no need to manufacture things that aren't there.
 
If I were on the road, probably not, I'd give you directions to the station.
Before or after you arrested me for not giving you my personal information?
;)
Or would you just follow me there?
It's not even an infraction around here. Drinking on a public street may be, but being intoxicated isn't.
IC 12-23-15 appears to cover that in my state, but there's certainly a lot of officer discretion in the matter. When acting as a designated driver for some friends last weekend, I saw an awful lot of intoxicated individuals running around Indianapolis for the F1 race. A trio of Germans we spotted were particularly unhinged and gleefully jumping in everyone's face they met. The special patrols out for the race (police cars parked in busy areas with officers perched atop them chatting and making sure things didn't get out of hand) didn't seem to be writing citations for that at the time.
If I wanted to question someone, I would question them. If I wanted to compel them to identify themselves, and there was no reasonable suspicion, I wouldn't lie. Either reasonable suspicion is there, or it's not. I have no need to manufacture things that aren't there.
Outstanding. I should expect nothing less from any of the fine officers on The Firing Line and The High Road.
 
Great discussion and one that would probably have headed south on any other board or most other contributors. Thanks guys.

Frank-
Let me ask you, though. Have you ever stopped someone simply because something didn't look or feel right? You know what I'm talking about: "sixth sense", subconscious observation, out of place in the neighborhood, just hanging out on the street corner, overdressed-high heeled-anorexic-looking-young-woman walking down the sidewalk at 1AM ....you know what I mean.

That's not a loaded question. I'm asking if you ever act on "hunch" rather than suspicion. If you do, does that fall under Terry? If not, when refused a name, wouldn't that rouse your suspicions? Might some (not you) be inclined to "recall" a suspicious activity and detain/arrest that person for violating this new law, simply to find out what they're trying to hide?
Rich
 
re Hiibel and USSC, this discussion seems, unless I missed something interesting, to have forgotten the following.


The Court has ruled, now let them enforce their ruling. I do not claim to have originated this thought, it was voiced a very long time ago.

Anyhow, what happens in the event that Mr., Mrs. or Ms. Law Abiding Citizen takes seriously Lincoln's admonition about how "most people sounding a lot smarter with their mouths shut, than they do with their mouths open", and in the event thay are stopped and asked their names by a police officer, for god knows what reason, they stand mute?

They might have violated the law in 20 states, but whence cometh the jail space, and what of the public angst engendered by such mass arrests as perhaps will take place, or might the government choose to "make a few examples", a tactic that doesn't always work as intended either? Could this sort of thing serve as a "revenue enhancer", and if so, what then the reaction from the people? Might The Court not wish to "reconsider" it's ruling, who knows?

The possibilities appear endless and contain within themselves, significant down side risk, or so it appears to the writer. So much for my take on the thing.
 
Frank-
Let me ask you, though. Have you ever stopped someone simply because something didn't look or feel right? You know what I'm talking about: "sixth sense", subconscious observation, out of place in the neighborhood, just hanging out on the street corner, overdressed-high heeled-anorexic-looking-young-woman walking down the sidewalk at 1AM ....you know what I mean.

I've stopped plenty of cars like that with a "pretextual traffic stop". They committed a traffic violation no matter how trivial and I stopped them with the intent of just ID'ing them and running their names and seeing what else might develop. As far as people just walking, no. I've talked to them on a hunch, or followed them or just watched them, but never botherd to stop detain them without at least reasonable suspicion. No reason to really. If you watch someone like that long enough, they'll give you reasonable suspicion. If not, there are plenty more who will. Talking to someone without reasonable suspicion comes under the "free zone" or "voluntary enounter". It's not covered by Terry.

As far as "recalling" suspicious activity, I don't know about that. I would imagine reasonable suspicion would get stale just as probable cause does. Lots of cops might do lots of things that push, or excede the envelope. They're only human, and usually a mirror of the community they serve. Lives have been saved by cops going beyond the boundaries of the 4th. amendment. That doesn't make it constitutional, but in my opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it "wrong" either under certain circumstances.

As far as state laws that make it an arrestable offense to be over a certain blood alcohol content, or intoxicated in public, I think that's unconstitutional. The behavior that society wants to curtail from those types of people is usually covered with "disorderly person" type ordinances. No need to make a separate alcohol related offense in my opinion.

They might have violated the law in 20 states, but whence cometh the jail space, and what of the public angst engendered by such mass arrests as perhaps will take place, or might the government choose to "make a few examples", a tactic that doesn't always work as intended either? Could this sort of thing serve as a "revenue enhancer", and if so, what then the reaction from the people? Might The Court not wish to "reconsider" it's ruling, who knows?

Jail space won't be a problem. The police will likely make certain arrests, take them to the station, run their prints through AFIS, or identify them in some other way, and then let them go with a court appearance ticket to appear later and pay a couple hundred bucks if the judge doesn't let them off. There won't be enough people who refuse to ID themselves or enough cops who are inclined to arrest them when they can use alternate means to identify them to make this any type of revenue generator for states or municipalities.

The thing I find interesting, even funny, about discussions like this, is that in my experience, the people who often stand on their constitutional rights (whether they have an understanding of them or not) when a cop asks them a question that they don't technically have to answer, or asks them, or tries to get them to do something that they technically don't have to do (like leave the house after a domestic dispute, or stay away from the house for a while, etc) are usually either fairly liberal or fairly conservative white males with above average intelligence, above average education, often or even usually from low crime suburbs. Good incomes, etc....These are the SAME types of people who expect and even DEMAND that the police go to extraordinary, and even unreasonable lengths to take care of THEIR problems, whether it's loud music in the neighborhood, traffic complaints, vagrants, BS little ordiance violations, etc. I've been dealing with a pro-life protester that fits that bill for the past year....He "knows his rights" for assembly, protest, demonstration and all that stuff, but when they call to complain about him and I tell him what laws he IS in violation of, he stands there and either plays stupid, or doesn't say anything at all because "that's my right". He could easily talk to me and resolve the situation and let me get on to more important "real policework" things, but he has to be a pain in the ass to the point that me sticking a misdemeanor ticket in his pocket to "let the judge decide" makes me feel quite happy and puts a spring in my step for a couple hours. I normally don't get a kick out of screwing anyone over, but I really don't mind with guys like him.
 
Lives have been saved by cops going beyond the boundaries of the 4th. amendment. That doesn't make it constitutional, but in my opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it "wrong" either under certain circumstances.
I agree entirely, Frank. Sometimes the law is not the most important thing. The Constitution isn't some perfect document handed down from on high. There are times when an individual (cop or otherwise) is morally excused for violating, or indeed obligated to violate a law and/or the Constitution. Glad we agree on that much, at least.
'Course, the person should expect the consequences that stem from such a decision.
As far as state laws that make it an arrestable offense to be over a certain blood alcohol content, or intoxicated in public, I think that's unconstitutional. The behavior that society wants to curtail from those types of people is usually covered with "disorderly person" type ordinances. No need to make a separate alcohol related offense in my opinion.
Yeah, I agree here as well. Our laws here appear to leave quite a lot of leeway to the officer in question on the matter, but they do allow for writing citations to intoxicated folks who are manageable and not disorderly, then taking them home or to jail, whichever the officer prefers.

Edit:
I've stopped plenty of cars like that with a "pretextual traffic stop".
A friend of the family gets those an awful lot. He's racked up a good number of sub 5mph over the speed limit tickets. In his case, I'm guessing it's got something to do with a few racist cops in a couple neighborhoods.
 
A friend of the family gets those an awful lot. He's racked up a good number of sub 5mph over the speed limit tickets. In his case, I'm guessing it's got something to do with a few racist cops in a couple neighborhoods.

Could be......Although I usually don't write a ticket for the traffic offense....But then again that leaves the door open for people to say "See, he didn't even give me a ticket, that PROVES he stopped me just because I'm (fill in the blank)____." What they don't realize is that if the cop is unsrcupulous enough to stop them because of race only, they're likely to be unscrupulous enough to lie and write a bogus ticket too to justify their stop.

Some cops have the philosophy that if they take the time to stop a car, they take the time to write a ticket. That's not a bad idea sometimes, especially when you can't tell the race of the driver most of the time at night until after you go up to the car. That's one way to address accusations of targeting one race. I enjoy writing a ticket is when there's a resident complaining, calling three or four times a week to the police, the mayor, the chief, about speeders, stop sign runners, etc, and I catch them doing what they were complaining about. That's an automatic no-break ticket.
 
I've stopped plenty of cars like that with a "pretextual traffic stop". They committed a traffic violation no matter how trivial and I stopped them with the intent of just ID'ing them and running their names and seeing what else might develop.
Sorry, Frank.....call it what you will, but stopping me on a "pretextual" basis ("Sir, your left front tire crossed the line") is harassing me beyond any reasonable man's expectations and I really couldn't care how many crimes have been solved that way. It's too slippery a slope for my tastes and I'd be likely to tell you as much.

While I'd been kind of ambivalent to the SCOTUS decision due to it's reference to Terry, if I understand you correctly, Terry opens the door to stop just about anyone you choose. Adding one more infraction to that "pretextual stop" would only increase my (appropriate) ire and set the stage for escalation. Escalation, regardless of whos fault, can only result in me being arrested or biting my tongue out of fear of being arrested. If that's the way you believe the Law should work, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Ultimately, the argument spins down to "If you've done nothing wrong, you should have nothing to hide." That's, by definition, the path to ultimate subjugation and tyranny.

As to the affluent white guys being the first to demand you solve their problems right now, change has gotta start someplace. I don't generally ask the police to solve minor problems for me....even though I realize, in this value for value world, I'm the one paying the salary...not the other way around. So, for those who do ask, I'd say (as in any other occupation you freely choose), "It kinda goes with the territory. Good customers. Bad customers. But they do pay the rent".

Rich
 
Sorry, Frank.....call it what you will, but stopping me on a "pretextual" basis ("Sir, your left front tire crossed the line") is harassing me beyond any reasonable man's expectations and I really couldn't care how many crimes have been solved that way. It's too slippery a slope for my tastes and I'd be likely to tell you as much.

Pretextual stops have been legal federally and in most every state for as long as I can remember. Washington state recently said "no" to them. Like anything, when enough cops abuse it, they will lose it. For now, they're one of our best tools.

Terry opens the door to stop just about anyone you choose.

Not at all. The standard is reasonable suspicion. You minding your own business does not likely add up to reasonable suspicion no matter how anyone describes it. The police can't even stop you if an anonymous caller says "that guy has a gun and just robbed the gas station".

Ultimately, the argument spins down to "If you've done nothing wrong, you should have nothing to hide."

But you have done something wrong. The traffic violation. If people don't think it's right to stop drivers for petty traffic violations, they should probably get their local city councils and state governments to repeal "petty" traffic laws.


So, for those who do ask, I'd say (as in any other occupation you freely choose), "It kinda goes with the territory. Good customers. Bad customers. But they do pay the rent".

The problem is, especially with manpower cuts due to the economy, that the squeaky wheels are getting service for stupid little problems (their problems are never "little" to them) and taking police service through intimidation from areas that legitimately need it a lot more. I don't care one way or the other, that's not my call, but it's rather disgusting to hear the whiners whine when you know that there are a lot more significant problems not being addressed like they should.
 
Frank-
The very notion and history of a "pretextual stop" seems to confirm my point about the slippery slope.
Webster’s Legal Dictionary
PRETEXT. The reasons assigned to justify an act, which have only the appearance of truth, and which are without foundation; or which if true are not the true reasons for such act. Vattel, liv. 3, c. 3, 32.

By definition these are done on false premise, in hopes of finding "something". That tool in the bag, we can easily see how it has been ever expanded: http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cri17.htm provides a fascinating history of this slide....written by a Federale.

So, you now have "pretextual stops", Terry Stops and the new SCOTUS opinion. Put it together and I no longer have a right to refuse to speak to an LEO who has even a passing interest in me. Even if I've done nothing wrong, I'm still guilty of refusing my name. That bothers me....not personally, because I can afford the heat. It bothers me because it further indoctrinates our kids into a world where they really have no rights when it comes to agents of the government. It dumbs them down. And that, my friend, is dangerous.

As to the rest, your glibly articulate response appears to betray a real pride in having it both ways:
If people don't think it's right to stop drivers for petty traffic violations....
kinda flies in the face of
...it's rather disgusting to hear the whiners whine when you know that there are a lot more significant problems not being addressed like they should.
Such as what? "Petty traffic violations"? You really need to pick and choose your occupational gripes here. ;)
Rich
 
(rich) While I'd been kind of ambivalent to the SCOTUS decision due to it's reference to Terry, if I understand you correctly, Terry opens the door to stop just about anyone you choose.
I think not just the Terry reference but the entire decision is garbage.

In reality, there's no such thing as a hunch, unless you believe in magic. There's always something out of place before someone develops a hunch, or there's a pattern of behavior that a suspect fits into. Every hunch is based on articulable facts if only the observer is observant and articulate enough. After spending the last two days ranting in part about the important differences between the two, I think the dichotomy between hunch and reasonable suspicion is absurd.

The real problem is that reasonable suspicion shouldn't be enough for a Terry stop. The entire investigative stop paradigm ought to be scrapped; police should either arrest, surveil, or investigate without violating the rights of the suspect. They should certainly be able to stroll up and ask questions based on a hunch or on reasonable suspicion, but they ought not to be able to detain or frisk based on mere suspicion.

Before LEOs start complaining that eliminating Terry stops would destroy the effectiveness of police investigation, I'll add that if there's a clear crime scene, things change. If there's a (straight-from-hollywood) murder at a social gathering, obviously everyone in attendence might be reasonably detained. I believe there are decisions that address detention and questioning based on proximity to a serious crime scene, and I don't think modifying Terry affects those in the least.

The investigations most likely to be hurt by eliminating Terry stops are those related to weapons and drugs. I think that says it all. People who hate drugs and unlicensed weapons will be against eliminating Terry stops.
 
Frank Drebin wrote, in part the following:

"The thing I find interesting, even funny, about discussions like this, is that in my experience, the people who often stand on their constitutional rights (whether they have an understanding of them or not) when a cop asks them a question that they don't technically have to answer, or asks them, or tries to get them to do something that they technically don't have to do (like leave the house after a domestic dispute, or stay away from the house for a while, etc) are usually either fairly liberal or fairly conservative white males with ...".

I find myself curious as to your description of the types that you mention. I would think that the two types would be, at least fairly, mutually exclusive, though assuming that you are involved in police work, I'll certainly accept that our respective experiences with people are quite different.

I also cannot really argue with you as to the number of cops, out of however many there are, who might act in any particular way, but as to your assumption concerning the number of people who might take a position, on principle, you might well be surprised. In any case, as I indicated in my post, I believe that The Court really blew it with their Hiibel ruling.

I also reiterate my contention as to the significant down side potential to be found therein, for it seems to me that anything that contributes or could contribute to "distance" between the police and the citizenry needs to be held suspect, and or is otherwise undesirable, particularly as same might effect "national security", and or "terrorism", both of which I believe were mentioned by Justice Kennedy, as justification.

Who knows but that it might turn out that The Court comes to wish that it had ruled otherwise.
 
TheeBadOne

The word for the day is "hypothetical".

I did not say that this was my practice. It was a "What if" scenario.

Know the difference.
 
FrankDrebin said:
The police often release people who have been stopped with reasonable suspicion without having been able to determine that they've done nothing illegal. I think it's reasonble to compel people in these circumstances to let us know who they are.
Absolutely right. What foolishness it would be to let people walk away without identifying themselves when police have been unable to prove them innocent of some unknown crime.

Welcome to the U.S. We have criminals to catch. If you're not a criminal, please ID yourself so we can verify. Thank you, and please, don't forget to vote.
 
FrankDrebin

You don't have to break a separate law to be subject to "punishment". If the police have reasonable suspicion to stop you, even if you haven't broken a law, and you run when they say "stop", you're guilty of a crime. And now you can be charged when they have a reason to seize you even though you haven't broken a law and they tell you to identify yourself and you refuse. There are plenty of times when police legally seize someone who has done nothing illegal.
Have you yet come to the realization that this law is written in prior restraint? They will punish you for a created crime where no crime exists; of course, that is one of the things government does best -- making criminals out of people for doing what was previously perfectly lawful behavior.
 
TheeBadOne

You stated:
A perfect example of what really breeds the "US vs THEM" mentality. Keep up the good statesmanship. You are doing wonders for civilian/cop relations. I'm sure that you look at it one sided though and think, "Boy, was that Cop short with me!" and scurry to your Internet Boards to say what a JBT this/that Cop was. Look in the mirror, look at your personal attitude/bias. Are you really helping to improve things or just grinding your own axe? Wouldn't you rather be part of the good fight, part of a positive force?
Do you think this guy was breeding the "Us vs. Them" mentality when he kicked this suspect in the head and then hit him ten times with a flashlight while two other officers held him down? Do you think he was "doing wonders for civilian/cop relations"? Is he part of a "positive force"? Or am I simply scurrying to my Internet boards to say "Boy, was that JBT really short with him"?

Note that this is the same 77th street station that has given the LAPD a figurative, and many of its citizens a literal, black eye over the years. The next step up the rung of the worst division ladderis the Rampart Division; but the 77th seems to keep the title of worst division in the LAPD.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/062304_nw_pursuit.html

There is plenty of film on this beating there and I am sure that there will be those who will say that the cop did the right thing as the guy was obviously struggling as he got down on his belly and was swarmed.

Then, again, maybe the cop was screaming "What's your name?" with every swing of the flashlight and the guy was refusing to answer.

062304_4pursuit.jpg
 
Put it together and I no longer have a right to refuse to speak to an LEO who has even a passing interest in me.

Reasonable suspicion is a more stringent standard than "passing interest".

Such as what? "Petty traffic violations"? You really need to pick and choose your occupational gripes here.

It's not a gripe with me, I just work with the tools they give me. I couldn't care less if they said we weren't allowed to make a traffic stop unless we had a warrant signed by God. I just find it interesting when people who insist that we stop others for very minor things in their neighborhoods imply that we're JBT's when we stop them for the same thing, whether it's because we got a complaint about them, or because we use the stop as a reason to get their name after we see them doing something suspicious.

They should certainly be able to stroll up and ask questions based on a hunch or on reasonable suspicion, but they ought not to be able to detain or frisk based on mere suspicion.

We can't stop or frisk based on mere suspicion.

I find myself curious as to your description of the types that you mention. I would think that the two types would be, at least fairly, mutually exclusive, though assuming that you are involved in police work, I'll certainly accept that our respective experiences with people are quite different.

So would I, but that's not what I've found to be the case. Maybe it's just the level of education vs. any conservative/liberal leaning.

Do you think this guy was breeding the "Us vs. Them" mentality when he kicked this suspect in the head and then hit him ten times with a flashlight while two other officers held him down? Do you think he was "doing wonders for civilian/cop relations"?

Cops do bad and even illegal things on occasion. However, I couldn't care less about what happens to anyone who leads the police on a high speed chase. Personally, I don't think the police should chase cars for anything except a violent felony.
 
We can't stop or frisk based on mere suspicion.

When I go jogging, I've seen the cops rousting black teenagers in my neighborhood for nothing plenty of times, so don't give me that. Maybe you're better than those cops, and I applaud you for that. However, the truest test of any law is not how it is supposed to be used, but how it will be subject to misuse.
 
When I go jogging, I've seen the cops rousting black teenagers in my neighborhood for nothing plenty of times, so don't give me that. Maybe you're better than those cops, and I applaud you for that. However, the truest test of any law is not how it is supposed to be used, but how it will be subject to misuse.

We're talking about what cops "should be able to do", not "what they do". Like I said, I just work with the tools they give me. If you don't like it, complain to your legislators, state, federal and local and get the law changed so that there are no more exceptions to the search warrant rule, no more Terry stops and searches, no more pretextual traffic stops, and greater sanctions for police who go over the constitutional line. Don't complain about cops in general, most of them are just doing their jobs the best they can with the tools they're given. I think you'll find that most people think the current definition of "reasonable search" is preferable to what some of you have in mind. That's who some of you should be railing against; The people who actually think it's reasonable to stop someone when 3 named people say "That guy just came running out of the liquor store with a bag in his hand, and we think he had a gun too." Rather than stop the guy ASAP, some would rather have the cop follow the guy first, call the dispatcher, have them send someone to the liquor store to find out what happend, then radio back and let the cop who's following the suspect know what happened a half-hour later. Most people think it's reasonable to detain a guy on the spot under those circumstances without a warrant.

Your neighbors probably called on the people hanging out. When I get a phone call for someone who "doesn't belong in the neighborhood", if the caller can't give me any more info than race, I tell them I'm not sending anyone. That really pisses em off....(I end up sending someone just to cover my ass, but they get the point). Every law on the books is abused by the police. That doesn't mean they're not necessary or good laws. There are sanctions for police who abuse their authority. The police aren't perfect and a community generally gets the kind of law enforcement it deserves. And it the cops' defense, you don't know what their reasonable suspicion was for "rousting" them. I was "rousted" plenty of times as a white teenager hanging out. I'd hope the cops would "roust" my kids under the same circumstances.

How many times have you called to complain about the cops who you say were seizing people without reasonable suspicion?
 
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