Point shooting

Well we can go back and forth forever on this. As far as the bad guys from gang land getting in a lot of target practice. Never say never, but in my neck of the woods there are four or five shooting ranges and I have used them all and haven't seen any "gang land" types at any of them so where they are doing all their target practice is a mystery to me. I realize a lot of LEO's are blindsided so that's why I mentioned the Ferguson situation. The LEO said he was beaten by the perp, well I've seen guys who have been in fights and that LEO didn't look too beaten up to me. The significance of this "beaten up" aspect is that it disabled the LEO and that is WHY he shot 12 times and only got 6 hits of which only one was fatal. In other words the reason he didn't do a very good job shooting was because of his injured condition. If that is the situation.
On the sights, as I said Hickok raised his revolvers to eye level and that store clerk I mentioned raised his revolver to eye level. The point thing is more instinctive. The reason I mentioned the 4" groups at 100 yards was to point out, although I didn't explain very well, that a handgun has the potential of being accurate at fairly long ranges if the shooter can support the gun and take lots of time, so what we have is a firearm that is being used in two different ways, with the sights and instinctive.
I myself have given this issue some thought. My issue is how some perps get into gun fights with trained LEOs and either win or are a lot harder to subdue than you would think. I think the perps are pointing and shooting off a lot of rounds quickly and the bullets have to go somewhere and this is why trained LEOs get hit.
The sad reality is at a very close range maybe there really isn't any one technique that will help insure you win the gun battle. My personal view is that in order to shoot fast you must practice that way. I do a certain amount of "Off" or left hand shooting just in case I'm ever in a situation where my right arm is injured.
I think LEO's ought to be allowed to carry whatever sidearms they choose. If an LEO does better with a 6" barrel revolver, then that's what he ought to be able to carry. Those that carry longer barrel revolvers could also tote a smaller semi auto as a back up if a lot of fire power is needed. My gut feeling is LEO's with long barrel revolvers would be winning a lot more gun fights.
 
Well we can go back and forth forever on this.
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And like most other things, we probably always will.

In another era, the feelings would likely be reversed too.

On the sights, as I said Hickok raised his revolvers to eye level and that store clerk I mentioned raised his revolver to eye level. The point thing is more instinctive.
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I think there is a lot of misunderstanding here with some, as to what point shooting is and how its done. Its not a "singular" thing, but a number of different things, that can start at the holster, have a number of points in between, and wind up as sighted shooting, even if youre not using the sights.

The point thing is instinctive, and simply your brain using other cues besides your sights. Like sighted shooting, you didnt/dont become good at it, by not practicing.

With that thought in mind, while looking at a target, I can present my handgun from its holster or a ready position, with my eyes closed, and when the presentation is done, open my eyes, and the sights are normally either on, or very close to what I was focused on. When I present with the gun just below line of sight, and then slowly lower my head, without moving the gun, and see where/what the sights are lined up on, its normally the same result as doing it sighted.

As Ive said before, if youre practiced at presenting and shooting using the sights, the transition is a lot easier, as you already have the skills ingrained, and just may not know it.

My issue is how some perps get into gun fights with trained LEOs and either win or are a lot harder to subdue than you would think. I think the perps are pointing and shooting off a lot of rounds quickly and the bullets have to go somewhere and this is why trained LEOs get hit.
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I think whats going on there is, the perp is acting on instinct, where the cop is acting on training, and training that in reality, is teaching them to lose.

How many here were taught to "shoot and assess", instead of "shoot them to the ground"? The perp is doing what should be done, the cop who isnt, is fighting an uphill and likely losing battle.

Now add to the perps method, a little in the basics and some practice, and very few of those "bursts" will be missing the target, even while moving.

Lets face it, whoever puts a high volume of fire on the target first, is likely to be the winner. Pistol calibers suck, regardless of the caliber, so why would you not keep shooting until they are down and done?

The sad reality is at a very close range maybe there really isn't any one technique that will help insure you win the gun battle.
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There isnt. Its being broadly trained and practiced, and flexible enough, and confidant enough in your skills, to morph through whatever is necessary to accomplish winning, and all of that, without thought.

There are a bazillion possibilities, and a bazillion responses. If youre practiced from holster to sights, youre a lot better off, than those who are only waiting to get to their sights. 99% of all of the above, doesnt start with the gun either. It starts with the feet and legs.


My gut feeling is LEO's with long barrel revolvers would be winning a lot more gun fights.
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Back when the switch over from revolvers to autos was going on, I seem to remember a lot of the stats showed that the hits went up with the autos.

Hits in police gunfights with the revolvers werent all that great. I think it was Ayoob who had figures of something like 25%.
 
A LOT of cops shoot once or twice a year, when they HAVE to for qualifications
Many don't even clean their guns other than those times
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I have good friends who are security guards for an armored car company. They shoot with me now and then. Now and then as near qualification time.

They have great guns, usually Sigs with DAK triggers or Glocks. Good rigs and ammo to.

BUT, since they shoot very rarely they have to warm up just to make fairly good groups.

Trying to train them at hip/retention shooting, 1/2 hip, 2/3 hip, 3/4 hip, sighted fire, one handed firing, speed reloading, transitions, pivots, moving while shooting, etc.... well they would NEVER EVER get all that down with the limited shooting they do.

Hence when we shoot they shoot two handed and use the sights, and them a few rounds from retention position. And I tell them, per Jeff Cooper, "If you cannot see the sights, bring the gun up as IF you could see the sights."

And for those with limited budgets and time, that's about the best they can do.

Deaf
 
And for those with limited budgets and time, that's about the best they can do.
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I still wouldnt rule out a good airsoft gun for much of the practice you cant get in normally at many ranges. Price wise, once past the initial outlay, pretty much any budget should be able to support a "lot" of practice.

Now, you do have to want to actually practice, and put in the time and effort to do so, but it will pay dividends.

With a couple of thses homemade backstops, you can safely practice in your house, and with very little mess. Most of the pellets end up in a tray at the bottom and are suitable for reuse.

ry%3D400

ry%3D400
 
Get married, work long shifts, low pay, and have kids then tell us about having extra time.

Now for ME, I've been a computer programmer for over 34 years (and my wife makes MORE money than I do.)

Money and time.

Took many courses from well known instructors, competed in IDPA, IPSC, IHMSA, NRA bullesye, Leg matches, even Hunter Pistol. Went up to 5th Dan Taekwondo (had my own school and still teach it at another one), over 40 trophies (well some are karate but..), went into Krav Maga for over a year, got all the way to Dive Master in the PADI (the old Dive Master, not the new one.) Motorcyclist and parachutist. Taught CHL for 10 years, Texas Parks & Wildlife Hunter Safety for 5 as well as NRA Basic Pistol (but that was all a 'hobby', I didn't need money.)

Yes money and time.

But many folk don't have that. They just have other priorities than shooting and I am very aware of that.

Deaf
 
Ah, AK103, now I know why I always want to take a shot at guys with mustaches! Especially the ones carrying AKs!
 
Has anyone ever found out if there are any particular types of grips that are better for point shooting? What I am thinking is a rounded grip might be off a little from side to side whereas a flat "slab" type gives the shooter a better feel as to whether the handgun is lined up better on a from side to side basis.
 
Any shooting where you don't consciously line up front and rear sights can be described as point shooting. From eye level, from the hip, or somewhere inbetween, its point shooting.

Different methods have you pointing different things.

I have seen the "point with the index finger, pull trigger with the middle finger" method ascribed to the Israelis, but I don't think they originated it. They may be the only ones who actually teach it though. It can work, and work reasonably well, IF you teach it to people who don't already know the right way to shoot. And if you only use it with certain guns. Trust me, there are some guns you definitely do NOT want to use that method with.
 
Well you don't have to 'line up the sights' to 'see' the sights.

There are several forms of sighted fire.

Some, like 'front sight focus' requires you to focus on the front sight.

Others, like 'shooting out of the notch' allows the front sight to be higher than the rear sight upon firing.

Others still, like 'flash sight picture' do not require a sharp focus but just see a casual arrangement between the front and the rear sight. It can be a bit blurry as long as you see the aliment is enough for the shot.

And there are other techniques like 'calling the shot' where you see the alignment and consciously or sub-consciously see how the casual alignment points to where the round will land and adjust if need be.

Plus there is using the flash of the gun at night to 'see' a silhouette of the sights as the gun fires and the shooter adjusts on that sight picture.

There are alot of ways to 'see' the sights.

Deaf
 
Laserlyte sells some laser trainers that excel for the not-so-rich to train with, and they do appear to aid with point shoot training; I think they do a dandy job of that along with helping to identify shooter problems like jerking the trigger, etc. I am far from an expert; I see the potential.

The good; for a semi-auto pistol, the trainers are relatively cheap. For the revolvers, you need one for each cylinder for the caliber which drives up the price... Still, it's probably a lot more effective than regular dry firing, and you can probably put it to the test while watching shows like "The walking dead"...
 
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