Point shooting

[Deaf Smith]

he said he was always aware of the front sight although he wasn't necessarily taking aim.

It's called, "see what you need to see" in order to get the hits.

One of the IPSC techniques I do like is 'shooting out of the notch', whereby you let the front sight raise above the rear sight notch a bit while shooting. That way it decreases the amount of time to align the sights.

You let the front sight raise some in the notch and you set the front sight a bit lower on the target. Does work.

You just need to 'see what you need to see'.

Deaf

 

[AK103K]

Wither it's point shooting or sighted fire.

Index and trigger control is the key.

Your index might be the 'stance', like a Isosceles or Weaver or one handed point, but it must be repeatable.

Trigger control is a MUST. Jerk the trigger and I don't care what gun, or even what range, you can shoot way way off.

And as Col. Jeff Cooper said, "If you cannot see the sights, bring the gun up AS IF YOU COULD SEE THE SIGHTS."

That is cause you have formed an index by bringing it up as you always do when you could see. A repeatable index that will work well in low light.

Deaf

I think what Deaf has said here, pretty much sums it up.

Once you understand it, and practice a little, I think youll be surprised at how effective it is, and at distances you wouldnt normally think possible.

If you practice "presentations" on a regular basis (both dry and live fire), from both the holster and ready positions, you already have a lot of this down.

Reading up on the various methods, learning hands on from others, and applying the Bruce Lee philosophy of life, and take what you need from each, as it best applies to you and "your" method, will also go a long way.


If you do practice realistically, I think youre going to find this to be a lot easier right from the start, as youre already doing it, even if you dont realize it. If you dont, its going to take a little more work, but its not hard, and it doesnt take very long at all to learn. Once you understand the basics, it goes pretty quick.

If you want to get a lot of "good" practice in cheap, and work on things you normally likely wouldnt with live ammo, get yourself a good gas Airsoft copy of your carry gun, and have at it. Well worth the cost, and it gives instant "real" feedback on what youre doing, right or wrong. Get a buddy with one, and you can prove it out on a "living" target.

 

[B.N.Real]

Not a fan of point shooting unless the criminal is really really close.

Handguns are inherently not accurate.

Your hand goes all over the place when you shoot unless you train it not too.

Revolvers require more training to shoot accurately double action the semis because the cylinder spinning and locking before firing creates more motion in the firing cycle.

Semis cycle mostly back and forth.

You have to train to shoot whatever gun you use the bet way you can shoot it well.

Most self defense situation happen so fast-you will be shooting by trained in reflex anyway.

Train well and shoot well-don't train and there you go.

Training includes more then just shooting the gun too-carrying properly,being aware of your surroundings at all times and being ready to deploy your gun before you are out of space from your attacker advancing on you.

I try to train myself to angle my wrist at the exact proper angle when bringing the handgun up to have the sights at a good sight line for use and you should train with both eyes open-not with one closed.

You have to see whats happening in front of you.

 

[AK103K]

Handguns are inherently not accurate.

I dont think its the handgun thats the problem when it comes to accuracy, although, like anything else, thats what usually gets the blame when the user isnt reasonably proficient with their weapon.

Your hand goes all over the place when you shoot unless you train it not too.

Your hand tends to go to where your eyes are looking, especially under stress. Thats why you see so many hits on the hands in close range gun fights. You brain focuses on the threat.

Revolvers require more training to shoot accurately double action

Not really. I think autos are just more prevalent, and more people use them. When it comes to revolvers, unless youre a "revolver guy", many, if not most, havent bothered to put in the time to learn to shoot a DA revolver, DAO, and its simply a lack of training and experience when to comes down to it. It isnt hard, nor does it take a lot of time to learn to shoot one well, but you do have to put in a little effort, and like anything else, that effort usually pays off.

You have to train to shoot whatever gun you use the bet way you can shoot it well.

Most self defense situation happen so fast-you will be shooting by trained in reflex anyway.

Train well and shoot well-don't train and there you go.

That pretty much sums it up.

I think the problem is, many people arent very realistic in how they practice/train, and tend to worry more on unrealistic accuracy demands and shooting practices, instead of moving, focusing on the target, and just shooting until its over.

You also have to get to the point you dont have to think about what youre doing, and what needs to happen, just does when you need it. If point shooting is required, it just happens, if sights are needed, they appear. Theres no conscious thought going on about what youre going to do with the gun, your focus is on the target, and your brain deals with the rest.

You dont get that, without putting some time, and realistic practice in though.

 

[Doug Ridley]

Okay, I saw this somewhere using the middle finger on the trigger and described as the Israeli method. It was a you tube video and if I remember right I stated in my OP that there was no way I could do that as in a stress situation I would always revert back to my old trigger forefinger. Glad to see that everyone feels the same as I do.

 

[SaxonPig]

I don't see how improperly holding the pistol can be a good thing.

My experience with point shooting is that with a lot of practice the average shooter can become really mediocre at point blank range. I recall many years ago a police report about a robbery where the crook fired twice at the clerk who returned six shots. Both were using 38 revolvers. Police determined the distance between the two shooters was seven feet...seven feet...and all eight rounds missed.

 

[Noreaster]

Best info on instinctive / point shooting, Mike Conti's books. He takes you through OSS training in WWII to modern day gun fighting with handguns. MA State Police hit ratio in real gun fights more than tripled after his techniques were implemented.

http://www.sabergroup.com/new_page_10.htm

 

[AK103K]

My experience with point shooting is that with a lot of practice the average shooter can become really mediocre at point blank range.

My experience has been just the opposite.

I point shoot in various ways, every session, and have no troubles making good hits at 7 to 10 yards, depending on what Im doing. Most of that is while Im moving as well.

Point shooting is not difficult to learn or use, and use well, and at distances most would balk at if they hadnt done it themselves, but you do have to put forth the little bit of effort it takes to get it down.

As I said before, if youre accustomed to shooting from a holster, and presenting the gun, youve already got most of it licked.

These were all shot without sights, while drawing from the holster and moving off the "X" while shooting. Most were multiple double and three/four round busts as well. Distance was from 10 yards in, and most from about 7 yards in (moving on the target as I shot).

I recall many years ago a police report about a robbery where the crook fired twice at the clerk who returned six shots. Both were using 38 revolvers. Police determined the distance between the two shooters was seven feet...seven feet...and all eight rounds missed.

This is all about training and practice, and even trained, or supposedly trained people can have issues. I posted a link a couple of years back, to one of Massad Ayoobs American Handgunner articles, where a cop and a suspect traded shots at 5' (thats "feet", not yards), fired a total of 23 rounds between them, and the cop got 7 hits out of 14 rounds fired, and the bad guy, 1 out of 9. The cop even reloaded, but by then, it was over. Whole thing took only a couple of seconds.

The whole point is to practice as realistically as you can, and have it under your belt "before" you have a need of it. The middle of a gunfight isnt the time to start. If youre accustomed to shooting rapidly, while focused on the target and not using the sights (at appropriate ranges), I think you'll have little trouble making good hits when the need arises. If you havent worked that out, things may not work out as well as youve hoped.

If you doubt that this is a valuable skill, and one thats actually more likely to be used when things go south, regardless of your training, give a couple of rounds of force on force with airsoft guns a try. Its amazing how things suddenly change, when your target, is trying to do to you, exactly what youre trying to do to it, especially when youre used to static targets that dont move or shoot back.

 

[JohnKSa]

I point shoot in various ways, every session, and have no troubles making good hits at 7 to 10 yards, depending on what Im doing. Most of that is while Im moving as well.

To allow folks to put your performance into perspective; how often do you have a session, and how many rounds each session do you expend point-shooting?

 

[AK103K]

One to two times a week, each time, somewhere around 200 rounds or so in "unsighted" fire, 100 or so in sighted.

 

[JohnKSa]

Based on your demonstrated proficiency, those numbers are about what I was expecting.

Point shooting is not difficult to learn or use, and use well, and at distances most would balk at if they hadnt done it themselves, but you do have to put forth the little bit of effort it takes to get it down.

Most folks would consider 52-104 annual range trips and 10,400 to 20,800 rounds a year considerably more than a "little bit of effort".

I don't believe I personally know any shooters who shoot that often or expend that much ammunition in a year. And I'm talking about annual total round count, not just the round count spent exclusively on developing/maintaining point-shooting proficiency.

Quote = SaxonPig:
My experience with point shooting is that with a lot of practice the average shooter can become really mediocre at point blank range.​

My experience has been just the opposite.

What I'm getting at is that while your experience is certainly valuable, it is more than just a little bit atypical.

 

[SaxonPig]

AK103K- Perhaps you are not the typical shooter? Some guys have more natural aptitude. Also, it sounds like you do a LOT of practice, more than most can or would devote.

I often shoot some from below eye level when I am at the range. Usually with DA revolvers. At around 20 feet I can manage maybe two hits on a silhouette target out of six fired. If shooting for my life I may crank one off as the arm is coming up hoping for a lucky shot or to disorient the attacker, but all subsequent rounds will be fired with the sights aligned on target.

A man has got to know his limitations.

 

[AK103K]

Most folks would consider 52-104 annual range trips and 10,400 to 20,800 rounds a year considerably more than a "little bit of effort".

Thats just normal practice. I mix things up, but these days, most of what I shoot, is more unsighted, than sighted.

Its also just continued practice, the "little bit of effort" was accomplished quite awhile back. Now I just open my mind, and trust to the ZEN of things. Keeps me in touch with the force!

Also, it sounds like you do a LOT of practice, more than most can or would devote.

I guess it depends on what "a lot" is to you. I devote about an hour or so each outing/week to shooting handguns. Sometimes if works been aggreavating, I get bored, or the kids stop by, I shoot more.

I dry fire a lot too, mostly while watching TV. These big flat screen's are great for other things besides ruining your brain too you know.

I put in a couple of hours in over the week reloading what I shot too.

I often shoot some from below eye level when I am at the range. Usually with DA revolvers. At around 20 feet I can manage maybe two hits on a silhouette target out of six fired.

I shoot a couple of hundred rounds of DAO revolver too each month, and more this time of year, especially when theres snow on the ground.

I dont find the revolvers are any harder to point shoot with than the autos. I do find the Airweights to be somewhat tedious anymore though, as they beat my hand up more than I like. The K/L/N frames are much more pleasant in that respect. I seem to do my best with my 4" 19 and 620.

A man has got to know his limitations.

A man is only limited, by his thinking he has limitations. By thinking so, hes usually right too.

 

[SaxonPig]

You are shooting at least 10x more than the typical handgunner. Not surprising you're better at it.

 

[Snyper]

I recall many years ago a police report about a robbery where the crook fired twice at the clerk who returned six shots. Both were using 38 revolvers. Police determined the distance between the two shooters was seven feet...seven feet...and all eight rounds missed.

I suspect that's just an example of two people who never practiced at all, shooting in a panic situation, and really has nothing to do with actual "point shooting" as it relates to one who truly knows how to shoot

True point shooting has to be practiced until it becomes a reflex action rather than something you think about

At typical self defense ranges it's faster than any other methods

 

[Deaf Smith]

Most folks would consider 52-104 annual range trips and 10,400 to 20,800 rounds a year considerably more than a "little bit of effort".

You will NEVER get the 'average shooter' to shoot that much (and if you did there would be an ammo shortage of epic proportions.)

Now I used to shoot more than that. I was a Jeff Cooper and Bill Jordan guy. Grew up on Colt 'O' and Smith 'K' frames and used Bill Jordan's form of hip shooting and Jeff Coopers Modern Technique (which alot of the concepts are very very valid.)

When some of the guys at the armored car units who are friends of mine see me hip shoot 5 inch black bullseye repeatedly at 4 yards they think it's exceptional.

Well it is, I practice alot. But no, they come out to shoot with me twice a year, before they qualify, to check out their duty guns. With sights they can, after shooting 50 to 100 rounds, hit those same 5 inch bullseye repeatedly, but it takes some 'warming up' to do that. Usually they dip several rounds low before they remember to press their DAO Sigs strait through and let the gun buck and not over control it.

So no, the lady that got the Ruger LCP .380 ain't gonna do no fancy point shooting. The guy who shoots his Glock maybe 3 times a year, 50 to 100 rounds practice, ain't gonna do that either.

Like the martial arts, masters are usually very good cause they live their art and practice it daily, and expert shooters are experts cause the live their art and shoot very often.

But for most people, that will not happen. Hence I teach a form of hip/retention and a form of two handed sighted fire for most people.

Deaf

 

[davem]

Actually, I think we are getting side tracked. In most confrontations between police and bad guys, we can assume the bad guys probably didn't do a lot of shooting and the LEOs do routine practice at the range. Therefore the LEO's ought to win all the gun fights. Let's take the Feguson deal where the LEO gets hit a couple of times and then shoots at the perp 12 times and very close range and hits him 6 times, misses 6 times, and the final shot- according to what is known, stops the perp. 12 rounds.
There are similar situations, LEO's firing A LOT of rounds and not getting many hits.
So...the question is whether there is or isn't something wrong with the training? Are better training methods of value? I saw one video on tv of three perps holding up a convenience store. The clerk pulls out a large revolver and.....
bam bam bam- all three bad guys are down. The shots were very fast. It looked like he raised the revolver high enough to be at eye level and was shooting double action.
The only value of point shooting is if it enables you to win a close range gun fight.
I've told this story in the past so if anyone has read it before- sorry. I was at the range. We have a plinking area and folks shoot milk jugs. These three guys come up, on my left. One shoots while two watch. This guy is plowing up the dirt and not hitting any jugs- only about 10 yards away.
"Wise guy, smart aleck" I think. I start to join in the fun by laughing at the shenanigans.
The other shooter GLARES at me, eyes are daggers.
"You aren't REALLY trying to shoot those jugs are you? I thought you were just kidding around, Sorry" say I.
"It gets worse than that" says one of his friends, he adds "We're cops"
I let him shoot my "old fashioned" S&W Model 19, he hit every jug and a look of euphoric joy spread over his face.
In any event, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. I've on rare occasion gotten 4" groups at 100 yards with a S&W 29 44 mag using open sights but shooting slow and off sand bags.
On the point shooting, the way I see it we are not doing anything new, we are re-inventing the wheel, no different that yesteryear when guys tossed tin cans in the air and then shot them right quick.
When my Dad taught my Mother to shoot he put NECO wafers in a crack on a log. The first magazine of ammo she missed them all. Were the groups "tight" but just off target? Who knows? In those days only hits counted. She eventually got where she could shoot most of the NECOs. Today in school we "group" papers and adjust scores and at the range if the group is tight but all off target, we seem to practice the same thing. Might be better off tossing tin cans in the air.
"Man, you missed them all!"

 

[AK103K]

the way I see it we are not doing anything new, we are re-inventing the wheel, no different that yesteryear when guys tossed tin cans in the air and then shot them right quick.

I think its more just "rediscovery".

That, and the fact that some schools/instructors, like Suarez, are teaching/pushing it in a more realistic course of fire.

Once Cooper started pushing the modern technique, it seems like things were more sight focused/oriented, and its remained that way, up until now, and is still the main school of thought with most. Places like SI have broken those chains and moved on, a lot havent, or are late to the show.

Im in no way saying unsighted fire is the only way to shoot, its not, but I do believe, its the proper response, as the distances and danger closes. Your brain is wired to do certain things, and is going to do what it does under those circumstances, no matter how you train, as is often shown, in some of the police gunfights. Why not take advantage of that, and expand on the skills that expand on that, instead of trying to condition something else, that your brain is likely to override anyway.


A lot of this can be practiced for dirt cheap, right in your house, or out in your yard, simply by picking up one of the Airsoft gas guns that mimic your carry gun. They work with your carry gear, and are more than accurate enough for informal target shooting, and are great tool, for actually fighting someone else who is similarly equipped.

You will learn more from them in this respect, than you will shooting tight little groups in bulls eye targets at the range. Something I personally consider a waste of ammo. All that shows is, you have the basics down, and can demonstrate that. I would truly hope, that everyone who is carrying a gun, can do just that, at a reasonable range, and do it on demand, with any gun they carry. Scary thing is, from what Ive seen, that doesnt seem to be the norm.

I understand a lot of places wont let you practice "realistically", and Airsoft can be a way around that problem. Nothing is perfect, but it does get you a lot closer to real than most other things available to the general public.

 

[Deaf Smith]

we can assume the bad guys probably didn't do a lot of shooting and the LEOs do routine practice at the range.

Never 'assume' cause it makes something out of you-and-me.

Cops are usually attacked suddenly at very close range. It is part of the nature of their job.

Civilians,, on the other hand, tend to have longer range engagements (Tom Givens, of Rangemasters, has found most of his 60+ students that have been in gun fights were closer to a car length in distance (except for a few.)

He also found the vast majority of them did use their sights, and did use two hands. The few that used just one hand were unusual circumstances.

You can read his findings on http://www.rangemaster.com/ In his articles section.

Deaf

 

[Snyper]

He also found the vast majority of them did use their sights, and did use two hands. The few that used just one hand were unusual circumstances.

They simply reacted in the same manner in which they had trained.

When I was about 10 or 12, I learned how to draw a 4" 357 and fire 6 rounds as fast as possible with one hand, and could easily keep them all in the "kill zone" of a standard silohuette at 7 yds.

That's back when the 357 revolver was still the standard police issue duty weapon

Quote:
we can assume the bad guys probably didn't do a lot of shooting and the LEOs do routine practice at the range.

A LOT of cops shoot once or twice a year, when they HAVE to for qualifications
Many don't even clean their guns other than those times