Point shooting: Useful tool, or reckless fool?

JeffK said:
Does anyone practice quickly pointing without using the sights, but using a laser? I used to fence epee, and epee fencing is all about point control - put the tip of an epee blade exactly where you want it to go, just by looking at that point. You get good at that by practice, practice, practice and more practice. Seems to me you could build up that sort of muscle memory with a handgun using a laser sight to give you the feedback on where you pointed it vs. where you wanted to point it - without firing it.

I didn't see this addressed, so allow me to take a shot.

The kind of coordination you practiced is at a set and close distance, just over three feet past your hand, and involves a leverage and balance of weight that gives you a lot of information on the position. If you practiced lots, I bet you achieved impressive accuracy.

The obstacle with a pistol is variable distance, but I would imagine that the sort of laser practice you describe would only be slightly less effective that live fire. The questions about longer distances and inherent limitations on accuracy as distances increase remain.

At least for me, I hit a wall after 15 or 20 feet and the method doesn't work for small (soda or tuna can) targets.
 
Yes, true, there are other non-visual feedback mechanisms with an epee - balance, pressure on your fingers, etc. These are going to be present with a gun as well, but much weaker since a gun is heavy, small and dense compared with an epee. But then again, leaving the laser on while you're pointing it is good visual feedback that you don't get with an epee. I'll have to give this a try and see if I improve over time.
 
Cowboy action Shooters and SASS

Hey Deaf, many of the SASS and CAS shooters also participate in IDPA, IPSC, USPSA and many three gun competitions. The shooter in the video of "Lead Dispenser" that I linked to is not only a champion CAS (SASS) shooter he is a champion at three gun and regularly competes against the likes of Jerry Miculek.

However, and correct me if I am wrong, but fastdraw competitions are unique to CAS and SASS.

Basically I see it as this; if first shot on target at close range wins, point shooting is a good idea (like a fastdraw competition). As follow up shots and distance and accuracy come in to play the sights are better. For extreme accuracy use a bench mount and the sights. I use all three methods depending on the needs of the moment.

As and anecdote, Without my glasses I have 20/450 vision. Basically using sights without my glasses is not going to happen. I still see the big fuzzy blobs of the targets and the fuzzy outline of the gun but the accurate vision needed for sighted fire is not there. I do some of my practicing without my glasses (I do use eye protection) because I can foresee the possibility of needing to shoot defensively under those conditions. Please don't go in to knowing your threat etc. as I understand that it is necessary to know that the blob you are shooting at is indeed a threat.

So, from my perspective:

- point shooting is fast and useful at close range
- sighted shooting is fast and useful at close to intermediate distances
- bench shooting is slowest but most accurate and useful for long distances
- Jerry Miculek hits a balloon at 600 yards and then at 1,000 yards using a revolver! I only dream about being able to use sights and Kentucky windage that well!

I like having all these capabilities in my tool kit along with being able to shoot equally well strong side and weak side as well as one handed and two handed.
 
WW2,

Back in collage I participated in walk-n-draw IPSC (the very kind of matches Jeff Cooper wrote about.) Yes the first hit mattered but... it was the first GOOD hit. Steel plats about 8 inches on a fence post. Walk toward it and on the signal draw and knock the plat off. Whomever knocked the plat off the post first one that bout.

Now days they go mostly by strings of fire (to their loss.)

As for eyesight, I can see if you simply can't see the sights, then point shooting (not hip shooting) would be the way to go. That, to me, is one of the exceptions (just as using a full powered service pistol has exceptions for those who cannot use one.)

Like I posted at the first, if you can't see the sights, bring the gun up as IF you could see the sights. The index you get from sighted fire practice is simply transfered across to basically point shooting from eye level.

But there are exceptions.

Deaf
 
This is just a personal opinion so don't jump on me for it, but I think point shooting is wrong and dangerous for many many reasons including hitting the wrong target standing off to the side or behind. The extra 1/4 second it takes to acquire the front sight is well worth the extra time. If I get hit because of that then so be it, I am not going to shot someone or their kid by mistake. Once you pull that trigger, you can not take that bullet back.

Jim
 
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Point-shooting is no different than sighted shooting in terms of the responsibility a shooter has to minimize the risk to bystanders. Sadly, regardless of which method a defender chooses to use, the statistics tell us that misses are more common than we'd all like.

Under the stress of a life-or-death encounter, people miss at a high rate when trying to use their sights. I'm not sure that point shooting really changes that significantly.

The reason I say that is because it seems likely that one of the main reasons people miss in life-or-death situations is that they don't use their sights even though they want to. I think it would be hard to prove that intentionally not using one's sights is significantly worse than unintentionally not using one's sights.
 
Just for the curious...

Shooting to Live by W. E. Fairbairn and E. A. Sykes was published in 1942 (the first time). The two authors were Captains in the Shanghai Municipal Police assigned the task of teachers the officers of the Police (transplanted Brits, transplanted Nepalese and indigenous Chinese) to shoot quickly and effectively in the Shanghai of the 1930. The book is worth reading for the historical content, and is invaluable in the lessons of close order violence learned during the time. As a point of further interest, the weapons issued were U. S. type .45 Automatics, break top Webley revolvers (.45 caliber as I recall), and lastly Colt 1908 Pocket Pistols in .380 ACP caliber. All three were issued to various components of the Department.

Fairbairn and Sykes learned - discovered, developed, found - a rather effective method of point shooting which they taught to the Shanghai Police. The book outlines the results. Those results serve as credentials for the methods. The point and sighted fire training were applied to all three types of sidearms.

I will only say here the point shooting employed was only used at 'closer' ranges. At 'further' ranges, officers were trained in sighted fire. Both were very effective at keeping officers alive and winning gun fights, depending on the circumstance.

Two quick points about point shooting. One is that by the second or third shot, the handgun can be - if properly trained - able to the aimed using the sights; this is regardless of how fast one feels the need to fire. Two is point shooting is valid and effective only at 'closer' ranges. The effective range will vary with the shooter, training and conditions on the day in question: However, point shooting always works better at four feet than at fifty yards.

Yes, I've seen those who should know better running point shooting exercises at fifty yards.

Oh. A third point. Be aware of downrange targets. Remember the NYC downtown shootings of not so long ago.
 
One issue I've seen with point shooting advocates is the use of paper targets or targets that show the point of impact. This allows folks to correct their aim and "walk" the shots creating a better showing.

I've shot a lot of critters and entrance wounds bleed very, very little. I think it's a result of the hot projectile cauterizing the wound, at least on the surface.

IMHO, using a paper target with a T-shirt hung on it is a much more effective training tool. :cool:
 
First I want to thank everyone that provided their perspective on this subject. I read every post and can agree on much that was stated. Good information and/or food for thought.
What I am taking away from all of these posts is the fact that TRAINING/practicing is paramount. How you train/practice, how often you train and if you train correctly will make the difference.
 
Exactly Shooterstarget!

There are all kinds of caliber wars on the Internet, .45 vs 9mm vs etc.., and there are plenty of point .vs. sighted fire and stances like Isosceles and Weaver.

But it is the SKILL of the shooter that matters. And that takes practice. Lots of it.

Not only range time but time at home with a EMPTY gun where you practice techniques like drawing, reloading,, pivoting, using two hands, using one hand, etc...

I fear a man (or woman) who is a fast and strait shot with a .22 far more than a duffer with a .454.

So folks, get thee to thy range!

Deaf
 
Look in Shooting to Live. Sykes and Fairbairn developed a system of shooting based on the fact that traditional target shooting like they had been taught was not working. They were having their rears handed to them by the local scum. Problem is the same as it is now. Those who try to rape, rob, or mug someone get up close. We are talking a few feet. Not yards. Typically then or now the bad guys will come up to contact range or close and either demand money if that is what they want. And depending on the situation either leave quickly or basically execute you. Times haven't changed all that much.
At those ranges if you try to draw your gun and thrust it forward you will,
a. Be handing you weapon to the badguy asking to be shot or disarmed.
b. The time frame in which such thing occur at such short distance does not allow time for extension of the arms (also as mentioned above the close proximity does not allow this) , aligning the sights, letting out half a breath, and doing a controlled trigger squeeze.
Most of their practice placed emphasis on a system of using the body indexing the target to aim the gun because of the reality of again the short distances and therefore compressed time frame. In Kill or Be Killed although their was some slight modification of the technique the reasoning behind the technique used was the same. Target style shooting with classic usage of the sights simply was imparactical due to the type of fighting the majority of encounters in which a handgun was used. But some of you seem to be missing an important point here.
Look at both books. Included within their teaching methods when time and distance permitted of course you used the sights and two hands. Look at page 48 Figure 15 in Shooting to Live. And read the statement made relating to this. "For a long shot in the standing position we think the two handed methods are best calculated to produce results.....practice this at any distance from 10 yards upwards". If you look at figure 15 it is an Isoceles stance. Then look at the text Kill or Get Killed.
First off second paragraph on page 136 at the end of the paragraph after contrasting point versus aimed fire. "It is difficult to draw a clear cut line between the two types of firing, but the well rounded shooter should be trained in both phases. Each complements the other". Page 137 shows a man kneeling using a classic Weaver hand hold. Page 145 shows different methods of two handed shooting. The whole picture shows a man in an Isoceles stance without knees bent. An alternative hold of the hands shown is the Weaver hold including the push pull method used in this technique.
Later additions to point shooting include the "Modern Technique" of punching the gun out from the draw towards the target. And shooting from various low ready positons. Then look at page 146 if you think the idea of using the gun for various strikes when circumstances dictate is new. The only thing they empahsize is that you should be behind or moving to cover when using these two handed stances. Don't stand there and make a nice target. Shoot and move!
Cooper and the practitioners of the "Modern Technique" teach the "speed rock" for extremely close combat. And at a bit longer distances a "Flash Sight Picture". Then with enough distance the full use of sights and the Weaver or Isoceles stance. They both teach very similar methods. Contrary to what others would have you believe it is not either Point Shooting or the Modern Technique. Both teach a form of shooting at extremely close ranges that use body indexing. The Modern Tchnique calls the extremely close shoootingwithout sights the "speed Rock". Slightly longer range a Flash Sight Picture in the Modern Technique or bringing the gun up to eye level and looking over the guns sights in Point shooting. The same technique for both referred to as the Flash Sight Picture or watever it is the same thing.
Both advocate use of sighted fire from a stable stance when time and distance allow. The main difference seems to be that most emphasis in the Modern Technique is placed on two handed, sighted fire at longer distances. In the Point Shooting method emphasis is placed on the closer shooting methods were most bad things happen to civilians and often Law Enforcement.
Saying it is either/or is not understanding what either system is about. Or how they were developed. Point Shooting developed when classic target shooting would not work due to compressed distances and time frame that would not allow this technique to work. But did not do away with two handed, sighted fire when time allowed. Cooper and the Modern Technique basically developed when Col. Cooper and a group of several shooters started shooting at paper targets for scores. Shooting one handed at greater than contact distances they were soundly beaten by Mr. Jack Weaver and his use of two handed firing. That became the basis of their shooting system.
It comes down to simply this. At contact and shorter distances both use Point Shooting rather you want to call it a Speed Rock or at a little more distances Flash Sight Picture or whatever. It's the same thing by a different name. Both agree at longer distances two handed, sighted fire is the way to go. The proper tool for the proper job is what it comes down to. To take a page from empty handed fighting you don't grapple 6 ft. from each other. And you don't kick at each other from grappling distance.
Yesterday I worked with someone only trained in two handed, sighted firing. When I put him 3 ft. from the target and told him to draw and fire he actually tried to get a two handed grab and extend the gun up to eye level and out. At 3 ft.! We went to air soft guns and I promptly showed him the error of his ways. Same thing with a young lady I worked with. She tried to target shoot at 5 ft. hunched down, both hands extended, traditonal sight picture. I let her do it. Then gave her an air soft gun and had her try the same thing while I stood behind the target firing back at her with an air soft gun.
Being stung by the little pellets hitting her all over the place made her realize at that range being shot at by little pellets that stung like hell she couldn't apply that technique for that situation. Much less if bullets were coming her way. Another thing is that the too many of the practitoners of just the Modern Technique can't shoot worth a damn if they are forced to use one hand. Some have never practiced it! If you can shoot well with one hand, two is easy. The reverse is not true.
Continue to fight either/or if you want. But the truth is for the best chances of survival you better practice both. Sykes, Fairbairn, Applegate, and Cooper did. Point Shooting has proven itself in combat for a long time. If you think point shooters try the technique designed for 3ft. at 25 yards like the old cowboy movies you don't understand the technique. If you think the Modern Technique is the same at 3 ft. as 25 yards then you have never learned the Speed Rock. You have not learned the Modern Technique properly. Right tool for the right job. A complete tool set is not just a hammer or a screwdriver. It is much more. And if you want to do a job right you better have a complete tool box and know how to use those tools. As a friend once said, "You may not like what the other guy does in a fight. But you better damn well know what he does if you want to survive"!
 
At contact and shorter distances both use Point Shooting rather you want to call it a Speed Rock or at a little more distances Flash Sight Picture or whatever. It's the same thing by a different name.

Well, not really. The trainers I'm aware of have dropped the Speed Rock in favor of position Two of the Four Count Draw. Once someone who can teach (not instruct) the Four Count Draw shows you how that works, it's eye opening. It also addresses your issue of teaching someone a draw technique that effectively gives the bad guy a delightful opportunity to disarm the good guy/gal.

I'd also note that Tom Givens had an excellent article in SWAT magazine discussing why point shooting was encouraged back in the day. As a hint, look at the sights on older handguns. ;)
 
Fine post, Sigxder. Knowing some history of earlier gunfighters helps us to understand the nature of the debate.

For civilian concealed carriers who most likely contact with a BG is likely to be up close (within 12 feet)...techniques for longer range shooting - 15 yards plus are simply irrelevant for most to survive. Different training options for close encounters need to be practiced more than they are.

I wonder if the need/desire for income hasn't made what is taught by so many irrelevant for surviving a violent encounter. How many hours of instruction with a handgun are necessary to learn the fundamentals and a few "advanced" techniques for moving beyond adequacy of survival?

The key to skill development is not so much how you do something but the consistency of doing it. Some techniques come more naturally to some than others but there are many roads to proficiency. Find that road and practice and practice consistently.
 
I have heard the argument about sights on the old guns. It had nothing to do with the sights on the guns being deficient. If you will check your historical records target-type adjustable sights were available back then. Although they did not have tritium night sights back then a brass or gold bead sight has a long history of being used for better sight pictures in all manner of lighting conditions.
If you doubt me have a look at one of the classics on handgun shooting. Look at Ed McGivens book "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting". On page 390 in the chapter on sights their are a series of guns listed as "Superaccurate Revolvers and Sight Combinations". The guns listed include (no. 20) a S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman with a gold bead front sight and a D.W. King rear peep sight. This gun was sighted in for 300 yards (!) according to the description given.
In the same series of guns (no. 22) sports a red bead front sight (interchangable with a Gold bead) with another King peep sight in the rear from their "first experiments on range man target shooting. Man targets painted white with no bullseye or usually no sighting spots or marks". Notice they were referring to combat style shooting at extended ranges. A man shaped target with no scoring rings. About as combat oriented as you get for the time. And it goes on and on. Number 25 is very interesting.
It is another .38/44 S&W with a Lyman scope outfitted! If you care to look their is all manner of sights on combat guns. As most of you know the .38/44 was the forerunner of the .357 Magnum. Page 393 shows a Gold Bead front and a white outline rear adjustable sight on a Magnum revolver. Below that a S&W .22 target pistol with very long Lyman spotters scope. Page 395 another couple of guns with Lyman scopes mounted. And finally on page 397 of the text a dozen different combinations of front and rear sights.
Number 1 is a rear peep sight. And a series of sights follow that include "Micrometered adjustable sights". With various shapes and white outlines for windage and elevation on the sights. Front sights include gold bead(various combinations of front sights are shown on page 398 which includes various beads, color outlines and so on. No less than 30 are shown. The gold bead was a favorite because of it's light gathering ability in almost any lighting conditions. Sort of the older equivalent of night sights or the current rage fiber optics. And also the front sights could be had with white, red, or black front sights for contrasting outlines. In fact he states that the guns tested by LEO's with Gold Beads were illuminated with flashlights. So shooting at night was a well understood problem.
The "experiment" that he refers to that these sights were used for to quote from page 394 of the text was replicate the conditions Law Enforcement officers were likely to incur when in real life gunfights. At the end of the segment dealing with sights on page 396 he speaks of developing skills of both using sights and delivering shots from the hip or below the gunbelt. He says he developed his skills at both types of shooting by long and constant practice. He states on page 397 of the text that one should develop skill at shooting with sighted fire "before training for shooting without sights". But again both types are felt to be necessary to learn.
Again I am stating from one of the greatest handgun shooters ever who spends considerable time in his book writing regarding the training of police officers in combat shooting. His training methods include shooting on the run (pg. 317 from the chapter "Training Law Officers") with one hand. "Five position shooting (on pg.'s 319 and 321) which is going from a prone positon and rolling over shooting from all the different angles as you roll. Note that all shooting was done at "man outline" targets for realism. On page 325 he shows an officer using a two handed isoceles stance moving back and forth between two targets. Page 341 shows shooting from an auto and it is referred to as "Police Training by Modern Methods, August 1937. And you thought Jeff Cooper came up with the Modern Technique!
It also includes drawing from concealment on page 348 and 349. Although he appears to favor a cross drawholster he does what we would call a "four point draw" on pages 264 and 265. Only with one hand. On page 246 he shows firing from a low shooting positon (point shooting) then the next picture shows the gun fully extended and looking over the sights. He says you should know both so you can handle any "emergency".
The low position for close up and personal. The sighted for longer range shots. I respectfully challenge your assertion sir based on a actual, recorded with photos and narrative, historical documents that better sighting systems were not available at the time. Not only were they available but throughly tested. You are making an assumption based on what? Your own knowledge base?
The fact of matter is that the sights on handguns at the time (and even on many modern handguns) were small based on the understanding on how handguns were used. As today if given a choice a long gun of some sort (from BAR's to model '94's and everything in between) was always preferred when it was known that trouble was coming. But when a handgun was employed it was understood it was going to probably be very close up, of short duration, and probably the best one could hope for was a "flash sight picture". And if you look at autos of the time that were used for concealed carry such as the various Colt Pocket Models like 1903's-1908's the guns were very slim, and without sharp edges (we would call it rounded or melted now), with narrow sights and concealed hammers (although referred to as "Hammerless" by Colt back then).
Why the thin guns with no sharp edges? With no hammer showing or hammerless? And small sights? The obvious answer is they were made so they could be drawn quickly without snagging. And it was understood that at best under such situations the best that could be hoped for was a "flash sight picture" for which the small sights were perfectly useful and wise. And what of revolvers? Think about the "Fitz Special" that were so sought after by thse in the know about gunfighting.
What did they do? Cut off the hammers to allow for a no snag draw. Even going as far as removing the front of the trigger guard to get the guns into action more quickly from concealment. Which Mr. Givens covers and does not appear to like. He reviews these modifications in a section which he refers to as "Mutilating Guns". Notice that it has been understood for a long time that guns for concealed carry would need to be drawn fast for the emergencies Mr. Givens refers to. And little if any time would be allowed for a sighted shot. At least not a target type sighting. Have you ever read "everything old is new again"?
Mr. Seecamp understood this when he came out with his little .32 sans sights. The creator of the much sought after S&W model 39 ASP 9mm conversions understood this when they created their gutter sight for this weapon. Colt understands it with their New Agent models. They do after all have some experience in creating guns for fighting! And when the much loved Colt 1911 was upgraded to the A1 designation after the experiences of the close in fighting in the trenches during W.W. I their apparently was no disatisfaction with the sighting systems since no changes were made or requested.
And we all know that the short barreled revolvers of the time were referred to as "belly guns" because you basically pulled them out quickly. And put a contact or near contact shot into your opponents guts as fast as you could. So the statement that they didn't have better sighting systems at the time is why they didn't have larger sights is neither historically or realistically accurate.
The "better" sighting systems were there as anyone who cares to read Mr. Givens classic makes clear by example of word based on experience and photos of the same. And he clearly states he experimented with these systems to find better systems for the end users that engaged the likes of Bonnie and Clyde, Pretty Boy Floyd, and the vermin of the time. And they were available for sale to anyone who wished. And I think the likes of Jelly Bryce and the other well known gunfighters of the time knew a thing or two about the use of the handgun in a fight. Would have adopted these "superior sighting systems" in droves to give them any edge over the mass murders they dealt with on a regular basis.
But no they found the sighting systems on the guns of the time quite adaquate. When you understand that a handgun is a weapon for close personal combat. Not generally good for long range shooting. Although some like Bill jordan did quite well with them when they had to be pressed into service for long range use with whatever sights they had. Sights have to balance being sufficient for a quick draw. Visible enough for when longer shots do present themselves. And not so large that they interfere with quick deployment of the gun.
Again I am not trying to play a know it all. But the arguement that those that went in harms way had no better options for sights at the time. And that is why sights were so small on carry guns at the time. Is simply not based on historical fact. The sights being small but adaquate is based on the fact that the nature of gun fights with pistols was very well understood at the time. You seldom made long shots with a handgun. Most of the time it had to be brought into action quickly, at short distances, and in most instances the sights were at best used for a rough indexing of the target. According to the data we have compiled now especially for civilian concealed carry the facts of a gunfight are still basically the same as they were back then. Very short (most measured in feet), very fast (2-3 seconds in most cases), and sights at best used as a brief indexing system in most fights. I am not against using the newer sighting systems In fact I use three dot tritium night sights (a bit better than a gold bead maybe) on all my carry guns. But again I train as those who have experienced multiple gunfight over generations of war and crime. Up close I can do pretty well with rough body indexing. Slightly farther out I can use a rough sight picture. Or given time, distance and cover I can do pretty well with a full sighting sequence. Please look at the texts I have quoted from. Many of these men who wrote these learned how to fight with a handgun and how to train with their own blood and the blood of others. Nowhere during these times was their a lack of more sophisticated sighting systems. Evidently their wasn't a need. They did fine with what they had. And the writers of these treasures of knowledge saw the elephant more than most of us ever will. I don't doubt their knowledge.
 
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