Point shooting: Useful tool, or reckless fool?

Just a question for Mr. Pond; but have you used a shot timer to verify that you do in fact shoot faster that way? Occasionally, I've found that people only think they shoot faster point shooting and some good pistol instruction can have them shooting very fast with sights.
 
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The sights are there for a reason--use them!!

I draw your attention to any posts detail how fast aggressive game can cover ground.

I'm not saying it's my technique of choice, but that, for me, I think it is something worth keeping in my "arsenal".
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There should be no "either/or" here. You should practice hip, point, and aimed shooting. Its not a big deal to do all three.
 
Point shooting absolutely should be practiced, and often. If youre not doing so, you seriously shorting yourself skill wise, and have a large gap in your shooting repertoire.

Theres no doubt the sights are useful and necessary, but with a little practice, you'll be amazed at how well you can shoot without ever seeing the sights, and at the distances you can easily and repeatedly, put good hits on target. The key here, is to know what to use and when, and why.

Point shooting also isnt firing wildly from the hip, there are a couple of different ways/methods, and they all have their place. Everything from retention to meat and metal. The important part is to practice as much as you can, and do so as realistically as you can. The idea is to be able to do it without thought or hesitation, and that goes for the transition to sights, as well.

Id say 85-90% of my close range (10 yards and in) shooting is done without sights. Most of that, is with the gun up just below the line of sight, "pointing", using one and two hands, depending on how Im moving when Im shooting. Focus is on the target.

Keep in mind here, we arent shooting "bullseye", and making good "hits" where you were looking when the gun goes off is what its about, and not bragging rights "groups".

Dont be too surprised though if you start seeing a pattern towards the later as you progress.
 
have you used a shot timer to verify that you do in fact shoot faster that way?
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I use a shot timer. Starting with my hand in my pocket, it takes on the average of 4/10s of a second to draw and fire, hitting the center mass of the target at 3 yards.

Point shooting is not only something I practice, but its something I teach. The idea is to prove just because someone has the drop on you, doesn't mean they have the advantage.

What I do, is have two people face their respective target. One has his gun pointed at his target ready to fire. He fires when he sees the other person start to draw.

With a bit of practice, the person doing the drawing will beat the one point at his target every time.

This is when the first guy knows the second is going to draw, the advantage goes further to the 2nd guy or the guy drawing if the guy with his gun out is not expecting the 2nd guy to draw.

This tactic is something we did years ago (in the 70s) in LE along about the time the book, "The Onion Field" came out. There was a big push that cops NEVER give up their guns.
 
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have you used a shot timer to verify that you do in fact shoot faster that way?
I use a shot timer. Starting with my hand in my pocket, it takes on the average of 4/10s of a second to draw and fire, hitting the center mass of the target at 3 yards.

Point shooting is not only something I practice, but its something I teach. The idea is to prove just because someone has the drop on you, doesn't mean they have the advantage.

What I do, is have two people face their respective target. One has his gun pointed at his target ready to fire. He fires when he sees the other person start to draw.

With a bit of practice, the person doing the drawing will beat the one point at his target every time.

This is when the first guy knows the second is going to draw, the advantage goes further to the 2nd guy or the guy drawing if the guy with his gun out is not expecting the 2nd guy to draw.

This tactic is something we did years ago (in the 70s) in LE along about the time the book, "The Onion Field" came out. There was a big push that cops NEVER give up their guns.
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He types true. This has been backed up by scientific studies on reaction times. I've even seen it on youtube.
 
Years ago I had a neighbor who was a retired police officer.

He claimed he could draw against a person with a gun pointed at him and fire before that person could fire.

We tried it with water pistols (plastic squirt guns) and he beat me every time.

Very informative.

But even knowing it is possible, having it demonstrated repeatedly, I'd still be hesitant to draw against a person pointing a gun at me - a real gun in real life.
 
The average normal human response time from the decision to pull trigger to the finger actually moving is 0.2 seconds.

For an 0.4-second draw-and-shoot to beat 0.2, that means that the threatener has an additional lag time from seeing the beginning of motion to actually then making his own decision to shoot. That might well mean you're dealing with a slow-thinking bad guy.

Don't bet on it. :)

If you have a grip on your pistol while it's in the pocket of pants or jacket, don't forget that there are apparel stores all over America, and they could use the business.
 
Shooting through the pocket was good with a revolver, in the movies, but it isn't clear how well it would work with a semi-automatic pistol. Seems as if the slide might meet too much interference to cycle.

Still, that one shot might save your life.
 
just my .$02 .....

point shooting is a good skill to have when you need to shoot from retention .... that means arms reach or less. Hitting CoM on a mansized target is not that hard at that range...... I don't spend a lot of time on it.

I spend more on moving..... because I value being a moving target more than thinking I can stand there and "beat the drop".

If that's all you practice (point shooting) ..... then you are unprepared.
 
just my .$02 .....

point shooting is a good skill to have when you need to shoot from retention .... that means arms reach or less. Hitting CoM on a mansized target is not that hard at that range...... I don't spend a lot of time on it.

I spend more on moving..... because I value being a moving target more than thinking I can stand there and "beat the drop".

If that's all you practice (point shooting) ..... then you are unprepared.
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I thought the OP was concerned about a wild animal (or ticked off domestic one) coming at him at speed.
 
point shooting is a good skill to have when you need to shoot from retention .... that means arms reach or less. Hitting CoM on a mansized target is not that hard at that range...... I don't spend a lot of time on it.
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Point shooting isnt just shooting from retention, although, that is one way to do it, and should be practiced.

Point shooting isnt necessarily a "short range" proposition though, and with a little practice, you can easily make good hits at 10+ yards, even solid head shots.

I spend more on moving..... because I value being a moving target more than thinking I can stand there and "beat the drop".
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I do as well, and most of my shooting doing so, is point shooting. Its much easier (and usually more effective) to shoot "over" the gun while moving, focusing on the target as you go, than it is to try and hold some sort of sight alignment.

If that's all you practice (point shooting) ..... then you are unprepared.
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If all you practice is any one thing, then youre unprepared. It works in all directions.

If youre basing your skills on what you do on bulls eye targets, shot at your leisure, on a static range, your REALLY unprepared.

If you really want to see how well point shooting works, and how youre likely to really shoot under stress, when someone else is trying just as hard to shoot you first, try some force of force with air soft or something similar. What sights? :D

I thought the OP was concerned about a wild animal (or ticked off domestic one) coming at him at speed.
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If you have time and distance, by all means, hold'em and squeeze'em. If they are getting close, Id be moving and shooting.
 
If you really want to see how well point shooting works, and how youre likely to really shoot under stress, when someone else is trying just as hard to shoot you first, try some force of force with air soft or something similar. What sights?
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Done it. I didn't remember using my sights at first under stress; but I learned to pay attention to them fast enough. In my experience in force on force, using the sights was still the key to getting good hits.
 
Suppose you do get the jump on the threat and draw and fire in .4 seconds, sending a bullet toward his heart. As the bullet expands and settles into his chest, he pulls his trigger. If you didn't move when you fired, you are dead too.
 
motorhead0922 said:
Suppose you do get the jump on the threat and draw and fire in .4 seconds, sending a bullet toward his heart. As the bullet expands and settles into his chest, he pulls his trigger. If you didn't move when you fired, you are dead too.
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How far do you believe that you'll move after you send your bullet towards his heart, between the time it travels to his heart, expands, then he pulls the trigger and his return bullet hits you?

If you figure that the bullets are moving 1000 FPS and you're 10 feet apart, it takes your bullet .01 seconds to get to him, then his bullet .01 seconds to return to you. That means that you have .02 seconds (2/100 of a second) of movement.

Usain Bolt (worlds fastest human) running full speed (at about the 60 yard mark in the 100 yard dash) when he pulled the trigger would move about 9.5 inches in that time.

I'm guessing that you're NOT Usain Bolt and you're NOT running at his max speed when you pull your trigger. You'll be lucky to move an inch in the scenario you described.
 
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If point shooting was as accurate as and faster than sighted fire don’t you think that Rob Leatham would be using the technique at these close distances? I have shot with Rob and taken classes from Rob and during conversation about seeing the sights on his gun even at close distances he said he always uses them. Now I know some will discount him because he is a competition shooter but he is hands down the best at it.

Also a .4 draw and a hit really? Sorry I just have a hard time buying that one unless you are using a SASS fast draw rig, gun and stance.
 
If point shooting was as accurate as and faster than sighted fire don’t you think that Rob Leatham would be using the technique at these close distances? I have shot with Rob and taken classes from Rob and during conversation about seeing the sights on his gun even at close distances he said he always uses them. Now I know some will discount him because he is a competition shooter but he is hands down the best at it.
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Not knocking Leatham and Ive never shot with him, but looking over a few of his videos, I didnt see him moving much when he (or the people shooting in the videos with him) was shooting. His feet were mostly planted when the gun was going off. Its been awhile since I shot any, but most of my (somewhat limited) experience with the pistol "games", has been that they dont want you moving while youre shooting, and you usually had to be in a "box" before you could shoot. Have things changed in that respect, or are you still basically shooting static when you shoot?

It would be interesting to see what the results in many of those videos would be, if you were not permitted to shoot while static, and had to shoot those same targets on the move, and how most shooters would handle that, sight wise.

Again, back to the point shooting positions, they arent all really "unsighted", although you arent actually getting a traditional sight picture. With the gun up in the periphery below your line of sight, or your body indexed, your brain is getting a subconscious sight picture of sorts, and is aiming the gun, just not doing so in a manner most target shooters think.

Im in no way saying dont use your sights here (when you should) either, simply that once youre at that level with them that you can quickly place your shots at most distances with them "statically", you should expand your horizons and expand into other things that you can keep in your pocket for those times you may need them.

You dont learn to know how and when its advantageous to move from one to another, by simply practicing one thing.
 
45_auto said:
How far do you believe that you'll move after you send your bullet towards his heart, between the time it travels to his heart, expands, then he pulls the trigger and his return bullet hits you?

If you figure that the bullets are moving 1000 FPS and you're 10 feet apart, it takes your bullet .01 seconds to get to him, then his bullet .01 seconds to return to you. That means that you have .02 seconds (2/100 of a second) of movement.

Usain Bolt (worlds fastest human) running full speed (at about the 60 yard mark in the 100 yard dash) when he pulled the trigger would move about 9.5 inches in that time.

I'm guessing that you're NOT Usain Bolt and you're NOT running at his max speed when you pull your trigger. You'll be lucky to move an inch in the scenario you described.
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:rolleyes: Perhaps I wasn't clear. Let me rephrase:

If you didn't move while you drew and fired, you are dead too.
 
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