Please stop with the 'ENERGY' BS

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Velocity is important- the faster the better in general.
Mass is important - the heavier the bullet the better in general.
Kinetic energy is (1/2)mass(velocity^2) which is just another way of saying the same thing but is a useful tool when analyzing how the bullet behaves.
ONLY having good velocity, mass, or shot placement is like building a house without a roof- you are missing a piece and it doesn't quite do the best job it could. Focusing on only one to the exclusion of the others is like fighting with one hand behind your back IMHO.
As for Einstein and his theories- he did his big work back in the earlier part of the previous century. There have been discoveries since that are not explained by his theories. There was the atom suspended in two energy states simultaneously, slowing the speed of light to ~30 mph in a supercooled material, shifting a light wave packet so that some of it seems to be going above the 'light barrier' by making it quantum tunnel through a thin barrier, entangled particles, quantum irregularities that led to a 'chunky'universe, dark matter... Einstien's theories covered what was observable and measurable at that point. It ain't complete but his theories are no less valid within their limitations than Newton's descriptions from Principia for what we consider normal everyday motion.

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
Sam,

With respect for one of my favorite TFL members, I believe you meant: (.5)(M)(V)(V).

Regards.
 
RWK...with respect in turn...

E=Mx(VxV)...(can't do sqare sign), unless Einstein missed on that one too.

Or common measure of bullet energy in ft-lbs is wt in grains times velocity squared over 450,240.

E=MV

Thanx Ron

Or sumpin

Sam

[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited September 05, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited September 05, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 355sigfan:
WESHOOT2

We all know thats bull crap. The stuff the IWBA boys come up with never ceases to amaze me.
PAT
[/quote]

Yup, those IWBA boys are just a bunch of country bumpkins. Imagine purporting theories in conflict with B & S...er, I mean M & S.

Pat, I am confident that you have never read any IWBA data beyond what might be found on occasion in one of the gun rags.

Back to my cave, now.
 
I also think that velocity is fantastic. But not because of energy. I like the way it mutilates the shape of the bullet, and likewise the inside of the object being hit.
 
If you would read my entire post, you would know why I chose dogs. Cats do not attack people, livestock or game. Also, cats are not as thick side to side as men are from front to rear,while big dogs are this thick, or at least close enough to serve the purpose.
 
Cats raise holy ned with game, feral and house cats do in far more quail than anything else round here. Thank god for the cyotes, they like cat meat.

Sam
 
You are right....energy isn't a big factor. Transfer of energy to a target, on the other hand, is the single, most important factor.
 
It never ceases to amaze me the sheer amount of different kinds of knowledge on this board. I have a BS in Accounting, start talking about wave fluction particle vairances and I get a headache. :)

With that said, I don't think that there will ever be a real end to the argument about bullets. So I carry that which I shoot the most accuracy and control. I plan on perforating the major internal organs of my assailant until they leave me alone.
 
Transfer of energy isn't the whole answer either. If you include clothing as part of the target stopping power can be basackwards from energy transfer.

200gr round nose police .38 special at 700fps doesn't penetrate much of anything. Definately a vest of any quality. It transfers all of it's energy in the target.

Conversly; 200gr KTW .38 special at 700fps will penetrate, vest, trauma plate, person and continue on.

They both arrived with the same amount of energy, the one which expended the greater percentage (100) did the least damage.

Sam...I want it heavy, big and fast.
 
Energy transfer. Hmm Conservation of energy.

You know when you eat and digest food your getting an energy transfer :D

Or when you stand out side in the sun your also getting energy transferred :D :D

When you shoot a gun you get an energy transfer also, more of one than the target ever could [since you get the full recoil from the bullet AND powder and the target is normally only hit by the bullet at best...contact range shots aside] :D :D :D

Technically what one should be concerned about is terminal ballistics. Or Wounding dynamics perhaps?

Course even that is more an attempted measure of Lethalness than Stopping Power. IMO stopping power is a myth. Only ways to stop some critter reliably & quickly is to destroy the motor center of the brain, cut off oxygen to the brain, good fast acting toxin [which either shuts down the nerves or cuts off Oxygen thru chemical means, right?], or destroying critical bone structures.



[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited September 06, 2000).]
 
Now we are gettin somewhere. The object being to STOP the other feller. A central nervous system hit or blowin away a hip are bout the only STOPPING shots. If you can go through the sturnum and some other messy stuff to get to the spine then you have stopping power. Wounding is for military and LEO operations. Stopping is the only thing for defensive work. If bad guy is mortaly wounded but gets you before he dies, you did not stop him. Merely killed him.

I would never shoot to wound or kill, I would always shoot to stop. That's my story officer and I'm stickin to it.

Sam
 
Chris Orndorff

I have friend who has a subscritpion to the IWBA Publications. I have read more than my share. And the only bs is comming from them. They have only theories not real world shootings. For you to call M&S bs you saying what realy happens on the street is BS. The IWBA came up with a bunch of artificail standards after looking at some dead bodies. Well we all know there is a difference in killing power vs. stopping power. A 22 in you liver will kill you but not very quickly. I have also thourghly ckecked out the IWBA web sight and I found that it has good information (testing data penitration expansion ext) as long as you ignore their recomendations. Also nealy half of their site is aimed at blasting the only good source of stopping power data Marshall and Sanow.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
Yeehaw!

355sigfan,

I belong in no camp, I do not subscribe to either 'side', and I base most everything I post on personal experience.
Except traveling faster than light.
My ammo goes fast enough to make the chosen bullet work correctly; terminal (pun intended) results. I can calculate energy, but it offers no meaningful data to help me understand how my defense load will perform. I think a look back to the 38-40 will prove my point (or not, you know how this goes).

I thought Einstein postulated that infinite mass would occur at speed-of-light; therefore it could not be. Do I stand corrected?

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>200gr round nose police .38 special at 700fps doesn't penetrate much of anything. Definately a vest of any quality. It transfers all of it's energy in the target.[/quote]
Are you targeting a person or their vest? The person is the target and if the transfer of energy winds up in a vest, you haven't transfered any to the target.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Conversly; 200gr KTW .38 special at 700fps will penetrate, vest, trauma plate, person and continue on.[/quote]
If this happens, then the bullet did not transfer it's energy to the target efficiently. Any bullet that exits its target is wasting energy that could have been transfered to the target.
 
I dont use ANY mathematics when determining what load or caliber I want to use or how effective the ammo will be! I use simple logic AND a qick test at the range it makes perfect sense to anyone paying any attention at all that a .45 DOES prove more effective with a one shot stop than a .223! unbeleivable? Ask any of the guys that made it home from Somalia! our .223 rds penetrated and kept on going, going gone! and the sammies kept on a coming! I'm glad I was allowed to carry my personal sidearm! .45 ACP! You can also ask a morrow if .45 ACP is effective! I use a pillowcase stuffed with spare rib bones and shredded mushy wet newspaper ( it acts similar to flesh and the bones act like natural bone) if you want to see what your bullet/ammo will do try that!
 
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