Please rank your top 5 defensive long-guns for beginner

[2damnold4this]

Frank, in your experience instructing new shooters, are there certain firearm types that make learning proper and safe use more difficult or are all types about the same? Does recoil play a factor for students new to firearms?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank, in your experience instructing new shooters, are there certain firearm types that make learning proper and safe use more difficult or are all types about the same? Does recoil play a factor for students new to firearms?

As to types of firearms, what's important is that the gun be within the student's physical abilities. Heavy or large handguns can be a problem for folks with small hands or limited hand strength. Guns with very stiff controls/springs can also be an issue.

With long guns, again fit can be an issue. Too long or too short a length of pull on a shotgun can make that gun unsuitable for a particular student. And students with limited upper body strength can have trouble with a 12 gauge, especially pump action.

Many of these problems go away with time, training and practice. But thing like an excessive trigger reach or too long a stock are consistent limiting factors.

Recoil is certainly an issue as well. Heavy recoil is hard to manage for beginners. It's also a turn-off and interferes with their ability to concentrate and focus on the fundamentals. Subjecting a raw beginner to a physical pounding is not a good way to start them off.

However, in our handgun class we use a step-by-step, measured and supportive approach. We do a lot of "hands-on" work with the students. The students handle a variety of revolvers and semi-autos under direct supervision, one-on-one, of an instructor. They use dummy rounds to load and unload the guns, dry fire and generally learn how things work and feel, and they get continual safety reinforcement. These initial hands-on exercises help students get familiar with handling guns and lay a foundation for safe gun handling habits.

Then in preparation for live fire, and after the "marksmanship" lecture, we work one-on-one with students on grip and stance using "blue" inert training guns. Before going to live fire with .22s, the students shoot airsoft (the quality type) in the classroom. After that the students fire 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor).

Then we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to. When someone has gone through our program, it's not uncommon for her/him to be shooting 1.5 to 2.0 inch groups at seven yards with the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards. In fact, many women especially have a great time with the .44 Magnum.

The keys are, I think, plenty of hands-on one-to-one work and a progressive, step-by-step approach with each step laying a good foundation for the next.

 

[Cheapshooter]

But what about your wife or teen age kids? They gonna use that shotgun?

Yes! That's why I mentioned the option of a 20 guage. Less recoil, but still quite capable of getting the job done.

 

[Pezo]

To elaborate. I like a handgun for basic self defense and a shotgun for a shtf or equivalent. We can substitute an AR but that gets too pricey and is more specialized and less versatile. Think slugs, buck shot and bird shot supplies and you can do a lot with one gun. That being said having a reliable higher capacity auto loader, in addition to the shotgun, that all can handle would be fine to. I have an m1 carbine that was stone reliable until I shot a box of very dirty and questionable ammo through it. I'm in the process of nearly getting it back up and running well. But it seems like over power for suburban defense. I have a tube fed auto loading 552 speed master that shoots long rifle and shorts stone reliable. That weapon loaded with yellow jackets or stingers, 15 of them on tap, would be a fine weapon for all in the house to manage.

 

[Snyper]

And people without some decent gun experience do not handle guns well. Guns are foreign to them, and they are awkward and clumsy with guns. The manipulations and management of guns, to be efficient and safe, requires some experience and instruction.

The OP covered all of that.
It has nothing to do with the elitist attitude exhibited by many here, who continue to imply that no one can learn anything without "taking classes".

It's just the standard answer to every question, followed by a litany of what classes THEY took, as if anyone really cares, since it rarely has anything to do with the actual topic

 

[Theohazard]

How is an AR or Mini-14 more complicated to learn to use than a pump shotgun? It would seem to me that it would be less complex to teach a person to take the safety off a (Mini, AR or other semi auto rifle) then pull the trigger up to thirty times than it would be to take the safety off a pump, pull the trigger, pull the slide back, rack it forward, pull the gun back into your shoulder and pull the trigger again.

I agree. A pump shotgun is a great tool for home defense, but it's amazing how many people there are who think it's easier for a beginner to use than a semi-auto shotgun or carbine. A pump shotgun takes more training and practice to use, period.

Remember: WE are mostly experienced shooters, but many of our spouses are not. My wife is 5' 2". She shot my 870 once, and HATED it. She could barely handle the recoil and she kept short-stroking the action. Could she be taught to use it properly and to handle the recoil? Sure, if she actually wanted to learn. But the point is that she had NO interest in taking the time to let me teach her how to use a gun like that. However, she can shoot my AR-15 all day long and she actually enjoys shooting it.

 

[Tucker 1371]

1. AK74 loaded w/ 30 rounds of 60gr Vmax

2. Mossberg 590A1 w/ 9 rounds of #1 buck

3. AR15 w/ lightweight expanding .223s

4. Some other semi auto .223 with light expanding bullets

5. Pistol caliber carbine

 

[leadcounsel]

I understand the argument about recoil. However, there is reduced recoil ammo.

A heavy hitting long gun (or handgun) may not be the best thing to START someone with... but they can work up to it in short order and maintain their technique.

And perhaps the answer is for someone to 'toughen up' a little... is it "can't" or "won't." I guess you can only lead a horse to water....

It is important to have options. If someone just won't shoot something that recoils, perhaps a Ruger 10/22 would be the answer.

But like everything, a person can learn to absorb it through technique, and maybe a thicker recoil absorbing stock/pad.

If this small Asian woman can defend herself with a Mosin Nagant carbine, I'm sure that anyone can learn to use any common weapon (shotgun, AR, etc.) with little difficulty or fear of the stout recoil. The MN has a recoil harder than a 12 gauge, quite loud, and the bolts are known to be on the difficult side to operate. This woman is what, 5 feet tall, maybe 100 pounds.

Men and women much smaller than us were using harder hitting rifles for a couple centuries...

BTW, I haven't discounted anyones serious contributions to this thread, and most here have valid viewpoints.

I have trained unofficially many people, mostly women, how to shoot a variety of guns. While I don't have the training that Frank or some others may have, I do have my own experiences in seeing what works, and what doesn't, for newbies. I've never encountered anyone that has difficulty with the pump shotgun at the range. In fairness, people seem to learn the other platforms well too. They are all relatively easy to use even for beginners, in my experience, AT THE RANGE.

An interesting experiment would be to teach someone all the platforms, have them set the training aside for a year, and then take them to the range and time them to see how quickly they can make the weapon go from unloaded and safe to loaded and shots down range. Essentially, how intuitive is the weapon to load, make ready, and fire.

 

[kinoons]

I'm the only one to recommend the PS90? Cost aside, I believe it to be a perfect home defense firearm. It can be operated comfortably with one hand (once it is charged), is relatively lightweight (and the weight is in the back), is fully ambidextrous, has up to 50 rounds on tap, and is very compact. While I hope I never need to do so, my PS90 is my overwhelming choice for defending my home.

 

[Theohazard]

If this small Asian woman can defend herself with a Mosin Nagant carbine, I'm sure that anyone can learn to use any common weapon (shotgun, AR, etc.) with little difficulty or fear of the stout recoil. This woman is what, 5 feet tall, maybe 100 pounds.

Men and women much smaller than us were using harder hitting rifles for a couple centuries...

You're completely right; most people can learn to use almost any kind of weapon if they're willing to learn. But, in my wife's case, my 870 is difficult enough for her to shoot that she has no interest in learning; she'd rather just use my AR-15 which is much easier for her.

 

[leadcounsel]

@ Theo. In another post, I may have come across making you think the AR was not a valid choice. That was not what I said, or at least meant to say.

The AR *is* a great option, and a premier battle rifle. While not MY top choice, you and your wife are well armed with an AR and it's great that she has a solid weapon to choose, that will resolve 99.9% of self defense issues if she does her part. Everyone has preferences, and that's the beauty of a free country where guns are our rights.

While not *my* top choice, I have several ARs in the safe, and shoot expert with them. It is a great choice and if you have someone that shoots it well then she is all set.

 

[Theohazard]

I'm not suggesting that you said an AR-15 was a bad choice. I'm simply suggesting that a pump shotgun isn't as easy for beginners to use as many people seem to think, and I used my wife as an example.

My wife has access to my AR-15 and could use it to defend our home if needed. But, to be honest, if I was to outfit her with her own home-defense weapon (and she were interesting in having one just for her) I would use my 10/22 with a BX-25 mag. She's better with the 10/22 than anything else, it's lighter than my AR-15, and she really enjoys shooting it. I'd rather her have an under-powered weapon that she shoots really well and is completely comfortable with.

 

[RBid]

All the beginners should take a full sized shotgun and try to hold it up and aimed at a BG or the defended door for 5 minutes. At the same time, manipulate the phone and a light.



There's more to it than the big boom killer kinetic energy mantra.

I'll take this a step farther, since many of us have kids in the house.

I think anyone who has kids in the house should do dry runs through the parts of the house they would have to move through, with light, phone, and weapon, while navigating doorways (set doors closed or open as they usually are!). It's an eye opening experience. Maybe walk through with the family.

 

[Theohazard]

^^^ I agree. That's why my AR-15 stays in the bedroom. If I need to move around my house I use a handgun.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I think anyone who has kids in the house should do dry runs through the parts of the house they would have to move through, with light, phone, and weapon, while navigating doorways (set doors closed or open as they usually are!). It's an eye opening experience. Maybe walk through with the family.

And, based on all my work with novices, it will take a beginner, even an adult, a lot of time, instruction and work to be able to manage that sort of thing safely and effectively.

If this small Asian woman can defend herself with a Mosin Nagant carbine, I'm sure that anyone can learn to use any common weapon (shotgun, AR, etc.) with little difficulty or fear of the stout recoil. This woman is what, 5 feet tall, maybe 100 pounds.

Men and women much smaller than us were using harder hitting rifles for a couple centuries...

You're completely right; most people can learn to use almost any kind of weapon if they're willing to learn....

Yes, the key is the motivation to take the time and trouble, and put in the effort, to learn. Decent instruction with someone who knows what he is doing can also make a big difference.

My wife always wanted to learn wingshooting with a shotgun. I arranged a private lesson for her and me with a local, but well known instructor and champion trapshooter. Her first lesson she could barely manage 25 shells with a 20 gauge, and her shoulder was badly bruised. But she was motivated.

The instructor became our regular coach, and she worked hard and diligently. It took a while, but she was finally able to graduate to a 12 gauge. She (and I) started to shoot trap in registered competition and help with our coach's regular beginner classes as well as coaching our youth trapshooting group. My wife became an NRA certified instructor in shotgun.

So yes it can be learned, but it can require motivation, time, effort and skilled help.

 

[Panfisher]

I think all 5 of my choices have already been mentioned. Keeping with the requirements of long gun and minimal experience:

Ruger 10/22 with 25 Rnd Mag. loaded with good HP ammo.
Marlin 1894 carbine in .357 Mag loaded with light not heavy loads.
.20 ga. pump shotgun with 18-21" barrel loaded with reduced recoil buckshot
AR-15 in .223/5.56 loaded with HP ammo.
M1 Carbine. With better than mil surp ammo.

 

[WeedWacker]

Get something that the shooter is willing to take out for practice and is willing to spend money on ammunition for said practice. AR-15's are fairly complex at first glance and need to be operated to understand. AK controls aren't intuitive initially and still need to be instructed. Pump actions need to be manually operated under stress. A "safe action" handgun makes more sense for a new shooter than those with complex controls, regardless of quality of manufacture and ergonomics when discussing points of contact in long gun versus handgun.

Stress the fundamentals of sight picture and trigger press. (Stance is dynamic and can change depending on environment and can take a back burner until the other two are understood). These are more important than the tech and without the skills the tech is nothing.

Other considerations: a long gun is easier to make hits on but harder to manipulate with one hand. It was mentioned earlier that a phone is a crucial tool in a home invasion. Being able to make that 911 call and defend yourself simultaneously gives you and advantage, hence the recommendation to have a handgun to free the other hand. That said, most cell phones and handsets nowadays have a speaker phone. Understanding how to engage this utility will make it easier to use a long gun for defense. There is still the disadvantage where you have to have at least one hand to dial the phone and activate the utility. A pump action is only good for one shot then you need to free up the other hand to work the action.

I would recommend a semiautomatic pistol caliber carbine. A Highpoint will allow money for practice ammo and ammo is common. A handgun that uses the same magazines is available as well. A JRC (just right carbine) takes Glock magazines. (Or a Kel-Tec Sub-2000) One 33 round magazine is worth a highpoint with two mag swaps and spare change. These are logical choices that promote practice.

If you have someone who is dedicated, laws permit, and cost is nothing, a Saiga .410 converted with long stick mags would be the best introductory defensive long-arm in my book. Once worked for a day the controls will become familiar. Recoil is low and payload is effective.

other rifle

 

[DannyB1954]

1. Shotgun, any manufacture.

As far as high capacity, how many people do you think you can have lying dead on your property before someone comes to take you away?
Rifles can do a lot of damage at a far distance. Your neighbors might frown on having dozens of bullets sprayed at them.

 

[idek]

I like several other suggestions already made, and rather than repeat them, I'll share one thought that I haven't seen yet. I admit this is idea is only hypothetical since I haven't used the gun or ammo myself, but the Rossi Circuit Judge (.410/45LC) seems like it has some positives for beginners and smaller framed people.

It functions like a SA/DA revolver. No pump or lever to work. No manual safety to operate. Just pull the trigger to shoot. If one round misfires, pull the trigger again to shoot the next one (no clearing jams).

At a listed 5 pounds, it's manageable for smaller shooters.

The .410 has a reputation of being way underpowered, but 5-pellet 000 buckshot is available with listed velocities of 1135 FPS. That's five .36" diameter projectiles weighing about 70 grains each. It doesn't pattern as tight as premium 12-gauge loads, but a review (of the Circuit Judge) from American Rifleman claims 3-5" buckshot patterns from 7 yards, which seems adequate for in-the-house distances.

Even with this ammo, the recoil out of a 5-lb. gun is still about half that of standard 12-gauge buckshot out of a 7-lb. gun. And even lower powered ammo could be used for practice.

Of course, people could shoot .45LC ammo if they wanted.

The 5-shot capacity and slow reloads may be a turn off for some people. Also, the cost of .410 ammo is too high.

 

[JimmyR]

In reading all of these comments, it seems most of the disagreement hinges on the expectation of what a HD long arm is there for. Some, like myself, see the HD long arm for the inexperience to be a last stand weapon, once someone has secured him/herself in a back room, and only used for people attempting to cross that final line. Others expect the person to be clearing the home with said long arm. It's two different schools of thought, and both have valid points. However, for the situation described in the OP, for someone with no training and a handgun available, I see no reason to expect him/her to clear a home with a long arm. If s/he feels the need to leave a safe room, I would think the handgun to be the wiser choice.