Please explain how guns are traced by authorities

[Frank Ettin]

...Correct me if I'm wrong Frank but in that particular case, the ruling was that the Fifth was not directly invoked / atrticulated to the police....

Not really.

In Salinas, the decision of the Court was that Salinas' challenge to the prosecution use of his non-response to a question asked during a non-custodial interrogation failed. Five Justices concurred in the result: Alito, Robers, Kennedy, Thomas and Scalia. But there was no majority opinion.

Alito wrote an opinion in which Roberts and Kennedy joined. That opinion essentially (Salinas, syllabus):

...concluded that petitioner’s Fifth Amendment claim fails because he did not expressly invoke the privilege in response to the officer’s question....

Thomas, joined by Scalia essentially (Salinas, syllabus):

...concluded that petitioner’s claim would fail even if he invoked the privilege because the prosecutor’s comments regarding his precustodial silence did not compel him to give self-incriminating testimony...

So the answer isn't necessarily clear. But also consider that even if one's silence or evasive responses to questions asked during a non-custodial interrogation could not be directly used in evidence, that sort of conduct could raise suspicions and encourage a further investigation.

 

[Don P]

Please explain how guns are traced by authorities

This should explain it,

Quote:
That said, if I sell a gun in a private transaction and the buyer uses it in a crime, it will still be traced to me. In that case, it would behoove me to have some sort of documentation that I took precautions before selling it
Spot on statement.
My response, from a different thread

I sold a handgun to an individual at a local gun show. Buyer had a drivers license, conceal carry permit from our state. Photo and address on both matched. had a bill of sale with all the info on it we both signed each others copy. Month and a half later sheriff is at my door inquiring about a Beretta that I own (gun sold Beretta). Good thing I had a bill of sale. Gun was used in a armed robbery in NJ. Sheriff called NJ detective from my kitchen giving all the info from the bill of sale. Buyer denied making the purchase had to fax a copy of bill of sale to NJ they in turn get ATF involved.
They found me (4473 paper trail) NJ calls mfg, mfg gives distributors name, who gives dealers name, who produces my 4473 as last know owner.

 

[2ndsojourn]

" I won't buy private guns if the seller wants all my private info and me to sign "bills of sales".

"Good thing I had a bill of sale."

"Many people when selling a gun like to get a notarized bill of sale or go through an FFL for this reason."

What a difference of opinion. When you buy a gun from a dealer we have no issue with a bill of sale, so what's the difference when buying from an individual? I want a bill of sale when I buy to help prove it's mine, and one when I sell to prove I sold it.

 

[Gunfixr]

To answer a couple things, i earlier said 24 business hours, and it was 24 hrs, period. Ok, my mistake, i only work at the shop, and, sitting in a hospital room trying to remember exactly. But, i will add that it is 24 hrs from notice. What i mean from that is, that the shop where i work is closed on mondays. We have come in on tuesday, to find a message from atf for a trace on the phone. Guess what, we have always still had 24 hrs, it wasnt mostly or totally used up during our absence.
Also, i said that it would have to be established that you sold it to a prohibited person. I kind of thought this was self explanatory. It seemed pretty clear that to establish that, they would have to establish you knew, and sold the gun anyway.

Really, a bill of sale written up by a private seller should have several things on it. It should have the name and some sort of other identifier for the seller, such as a dl number or address, the same for the buyer, and the gun info, make, model, serial number. It should have the date of sale. There should be two copies made, and you both sign both, and each of you keeps one.
This actually protects both of you. For all you know, as the buyer, you are buying a stolen gun, or a gun used in a crime. If a stolen gun, and it gets figured out, the bill of sale shows that you bought it in good faith, not knowingly receiving stolen property.

No, you dont have to do any of this. If the police show up one day, looking for a gun you sold, you just tell them you sold it, you have done nothing wrong. If they like you for the crime, they probably already did, and its a trip to see what lies you tell. The bill of sale, or lack thereof means nothing.
Do whatever you want, but in todays world, you cannot cya enough.

 

[62coltnavy]

I still find it amazing that police officers in California seem to think that all handguns in California are registered, and if they are not registered they are necessarily illegal. This is simply not true. I didn't live here at the time, so someone correct me if my recollection is wrong (pretty weak on dates) that California did not have a handgun registration scheme until 2000, and any gun obtained prior to that date is not required to be "registered" until a sale after the effective date of the statute. (Even more bizarrely, I was told by a retired cop AND an FFL in a gun shop that "California does not register firearms." The DROS, according to the DOJ is not a "registration" (despite the fact that it is filed electronically and accessible by every LEO in the state.). Long guns were not registered at all prior to January 1, 2014. Homemade guns (so far) are not required to be registered either, until transferred. The only truly comprehensive scheme in the State is for RAWs acquired before the ban. (They can no longer be transferred in state.)

 

[Don P]

To some of the respondents here, sure you can sell a gun without a bill of sale and totally be within the law. Now have LE show up at your door looking for a gun you sold. Somehow things go from OK to bad and now you wind up under scrutiny from LE. One never knows how something like this will turn out. Now to the point what harm is it to have that bill of sale with all the info from the buyer on it. Saved me a lot of headaches. It would not take long for LE to find out the different places you may have resided in in your life time and behold the seller of the gun in question is from the state area where this gun in question was used in the robbery. For what my opinion is worth speaking/typing from personal experience utilize a bill of sale for a private transaction and cover your dupa down the road.

 

[TimSr]

In reality, I can't help but wonder how often feds are actually called upon to "trace" a gun, when most crimes involving guns are investedigated by the states other than paperwork violations.

I also have great doubts about their ability to trace anthing beyond the first retail sale after seeing their performance in "tracking weapons" sold illegally for that purpose directly overseen by the US Justice Dept.

 

[csmsss]

Just a thought. If you sell a firearm, and that firearm is subsequently used in the commission of a crime, state and/or federal law enforcement may well come to you as the last traceable owner. If you don't give them the answer they are looking for (ie one of more documents that provably document the transfer of possession to an identifiable third party who was not a prohibited person), you are quite likely to receive quite a bit of unwanted attention. And they don't even need to effect an arrest to make your life...interesting, and busy, and expensive in doing so. Not to mention, they are free to interview your friends, and family, and work contacts or place of business in the conduct of their investigation. None of this violates any of your rights yet all of it can be incredibly disruptive to your life as well as your family's.

In light of that, do you really want to execute an undocumented sale of a firearm to a total stranger who may or may not be telling you the truth? I know the answer in my case!

 

[Gbro]

Please correct me if I am wrong.
According to my old friend whom was an FFL for many years out of his home and is now deceased, but a few years before his passing I was questioning him about his 4473's and he stated that when he let his FFL expire there was no requirement to turn in any 4473's he had and that requirement was a newer issue. He claimed he still had all records 15> years after letting license laps.
And another way for a firearm to be traced;
I purchased a P97DC used at a gun show and although I did buy through a dealer and a 4473 was filled out I sent it back to Ruger for repair. Now I would certainly believe Ruger would put a little notation in their records that they repaired this handgun and mailed it to Gbro, @ Small Town MN.

And, I have read the transferee regulations in MN Statutes
And I understand thisi s MN law only, but both party's could be in jeopardy.

Subd. 14.Transfer to unknown party. (a) No person shall transfer a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to another who is not personally known to the transferor unless the proposed transferee presents evidence of identity to the transferor.

(b) No person who is not personally known to the transferor shall become a transferee of a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon unless the person presents evidence of identity to the transferor.

(c) The evidence of identity shall contain the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the proposed transferee; must be made or issued by or under the authority of the United States government, a state, a political subdivision of a state, a foreign government, a political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi-governmental organization; and must be of a type commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

 

[Gunfixr]

Traces happen pretty regularly, but, like anything else, it comes and goes. Sometimes we dont hear from atf on a trace for several weeks or a month, sometimes there are several traces in a single week.
We are but one small shop, out of however many there are. Also, we are a rural shop, meaning we get a lot of repeat, long time business, not the type that leads to a trace.
We have had traces for guns sold only months before, to traces on guns sold over a decade before.
We have noticed that most seem to come from buyers who came out from one or more of several larger cities not far away.
We dont get told how it turned out, so while we know the process, exactly what happens later is unknown.

 

[Librarian]

1) I still find it amazing that police officers in California seem to think that all handguns in California are registered, and if they are not registered they are necessarily illegal. This is simply not true.

2) I didn't live here at the time, so someone correct me if my recollection is wrong (pretty weak on dates) that California did not have a handgun registration scheme until 2000, and any gun obtained prior to that date is not required to be "registered" until a sale after the effective date of the statute.

3) (Even more bizarrely, I was told by a retired cop AND an FFL in a gun shop that "California does not register firearms." The DROS, according to the DOJ is not a "registration" (despite the fact that it is filed electronically and accessible by every LEO in the state.).

4) Long guns were not registered at all prior to January 1, 2014. Homemade guns (so far) are not required to be registered either, until transferred.

5) The only truly comprehensive scheme in the State is for RAWs acquired before the ban. (They can no longer be transferred in state.)

1) I don't know why that is, either; newspaper articles seem always to wonder if a gun might be registered.

2) Required use of an FFL for substantially all firearms transfers began in 1991. Otherwise, that's correct.

3) CA-DOJ does, indeed, maintain DROS info sent to the state is not registration; at the same time, CA Penal Code 27560 requires new residents to register their firearms by submitting a form. Perhaps they might mean 'not as intrusive and annoying as it could be'.

4) Right.

5) Like the recent reports about New York, it seems that compliance with the registration requirements for California 'assault weapons' is something less than complete. I believe the guess during legislative hearings was about 20% complied.

See also the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Firearms_registration

 

[Doyle]

Gbro brings up a really going point that I think needs to be further examined.

Manufacturer sells to Joe's Gun Shop who sells to "1st purchaser". "1st purchaser" sells gun to "2nd purchaser" in a non-4473 transaction. "2nd purchaser" sends it back to Manufacturer who performs repairs and returns it to "2nd purchaser".

Firearm is later the subject of police tracing and they start out by going to Manufacturer. Does Manufacturer disclose to police that even though it was originally shipped to Joe's Gun Shop, their records now indicate that the latest owner is "2nd purchaser"?

 

[csmsss]

Gbro brings up a really going point that I think needs to be further examined.

Manufacturer sells to Joe's Gun Shop who sells to "1st purchaser". "1st purchaser" sells gun to "2nd purchaser" in a non-4473 transaction. "2nd purchaser" sends it back to Manufacturer who performs repairs and returns it to "2nd purchaser".

Firearm is later the subject of police tracing and they start out by going to Manufacturer. Does Manufacturer disclose to police that even though it was originally shipped to Joe's Gun Shop, their records now indicate that the latest owner is "2nd purchaser"?

This is no different than if you had taken a firearm to a gunsmith for repair. Neither the manufacturer nor a gunsmith is required to do a 4473 or to retain any records for BATFE for such work, nor are they required to do a background check or cross-comparison between the current owner of a firearm and the original purchaser.

 

[wogpotter]

Again, as with so much TV there's a huge gap between the fantasy world & reality.

I just saw an episode of a "Police Procedural/Buddy/buddy cop show". A sniper had killed & vanished, apparently at random. The cope find a single, fired 30-06 case that a homeless man has taken for a souvenir. Here's how Hollywood thinks this works.

Crime lab tech swabs the inside of the case & runs the residue through a Mass Spectrometer & an "Atomic Flame analysis unit". She notes "unique particles" & looks through an electron microscope. They're "Taggants inserted into custom gunpowder blends" for reloaders.

Then she looks through the registration papers of all "registered reloaders".

Cross referencing this against a database of "custom reloading shops" with powder licenses on file. She finds only a few used this "unique custom blend" of tagged gunpowder. Checking those she finds only very few have close proximity to each other so the cops visit "all 15 reloaders" that have "registered 30-06 sniper rifles".

Yeah, they wish. In the real world that process has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

 

[Gbro]

This is no different than if you had taken a firearm to a gunsmith for repair. Neither the manufacturer nor a gunsmith is required to do a 4473 or to retain any records for BATFE for such work, nor are they required to do a background check or cross-comparison between the current owner of a firearm and the original purchaser.

It is different!
The Local Gun Smith doe not have a data base with the serial number of my handgun on file.
The local Gun Smith is not going to be called on to provide the BATFE with the information on where this handgun went after being manufactured.
I have no clue as to what a manufacture is required to do but I certainly believe there would be a notation in the data base as to work done in there facility and whom it was done for and address of whom this handgun was sent to???
I have since received recall authorization on another firearm but rethought my options and didn't send the firearm back.

 

[kilimanjaro]

Certainly is a lot of person-hours being spent by a lot of people to trace one firearm, isn't it?

Now, can anyone tell me, unless a serialed firearm is found at the scene of a crime, and no DNA residue, exactly what does all this effort do by providing for the public safety by assisting to solve the crime.

I think it's hardly germane to the issue to know that Joe Valachi's murder weapon was purchased at Bob's Gun Plaza on October 1th, 1974 by a store owner who lost it in a burglary in 1976.

 

[dogtown tom]

csmsss

Quote:
Gbro brings up a really going point that I think needs to be further examined.

Manufacturer sells to Joe's Gun Shop who sells to "1st purchaser". "1st purchaser" sells gun to "2nd purchaser" in a non-4473 transaction. "2nd purchaser" sends it back to Manufacturer who performs repairs and returns it to "2nd purchaser".

Firearm is later the subject of police tracing and they start out by going to Manufacturer. Does Manufacturer disclose to police that even though it was originally shipped to Joe's Gun Shop, their records now indicate that the latest owner is "2nd purchaser"?

This is no different than if you had taken a firearm to a gunsmith for repair. Neither the manufacturer nor a gunsmith is required to do a 4473 or to retain any records for BATFE for such work, nor are they required to do a background check or cross-comparison between the current owner of a firearm and the original purchaser.

Not true.
If you ship a firearm to the manufacturer for repair, they will most certainly record the acquisition in their bound book and upon completition of the repair record the disposition to the owner.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-gunsmith-need-enter-permanent-bound-book-record-every-firearm-received-adjustment

Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent "bound book" record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?
If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an “acquisition.” If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.

 

[flphotog]

"If the original purchaser had previously disposed of the gun, he will be asked about the transaction."

They can ask all they want, but I am no required by law to maintain any records.

 

[Gunfixr]

Any firearm that comes into the possession of an ffl and stays overnight must be entered into the bound book, and then logged out when the person picks it back up.
So long as the same person who dropped it off picks it up, there is no 4473 filled out. Ownership of the firearm is irrelevant.
This would be the same for the bound book of a manufacturer that a person sent a gun into to be repaired or modified.
A gun found with no serial number is untraceable, as the whole system is based on the serial number.
Yes, it is some man hours, but these days, its phone calls and fax transmissions, maybe some email.

 

[FITASC]

If the original purchaser had previously disposed of the gun, he will be asked about the transaction."

They can ask all they want, but I am no required by law to maintain any records.

Yep. "Got sold at a gun show/yard sale/flea market/ wherever"...................

Sure wish they taught civics in school like they used to........