Please explain how guns are traced by authorities

[rajbcpa]

When Clinton became president he signed into law around 1993 a requirement that gun transfers require a federal background check. I distinctly remember lots of discussion about what would be done with the data that would be collected by the feds.

As I recall, the NRA worked hard to include a provision in the bill that prohibited the government from maintaining any information on the form. The fear is that it would create a massive database of firearms owners that could be used in subsequent confiscations and other evil political purposes.

I read a few months ago that in direct violation of the Clinton law, the feds maintain the information obtained on the forms for periods of up to several months. Yikes!

OK, so now the question. What information can be learned from a serial number on a gun? I hear in many media reports that such-and-such a gun was "traced" to a certain owner. Really?

How is that done? Lets ignore a few state laws that require handgun registration.

I know a "paper only" copy of the transfer form is required to be held by the FFL for 10 years and the gun maker must keep a record of the original owner (FFL). But if these are the "only" records, how can authorities "trace" a gun to its current owner?

...just wondering if the government is really ignoring the law and keeping databases of gun owners......

Thanks....

 

[dakota.potts]

The information that goes to the federal level is simple stuff. Name, date of birth, social security (optional), race, type of firearm (long gun, handgun, other, multiple).

The form that gets filled out that has all the detailed information is the form 4473. That stays with the dealer for 20 years. Authorities can really only see those forms if there's a court issued warrant or subpoena.

So say a Mossberg 500 with serial number 123 comes up used in a crime. The authorities will go to Mossberg, who will look in their log of outgoing firearms and tell them that the Mossberg was sold to Bubba's Blaster Emporium. They will make a visit to Bubba's, where all those forms for 20 years are available. They will check the bound book, see when that Mossberg left Bubba's system, and pull the forms for that day until they find the form 4473 that says that John Smith at 777 Evergreen Terrace bought it.

Technically their ability to trace it stops there, unless there are stricter state laws. If they show up at John Doe's house and he doesn't have the gun or information on where it went, it may look bad for John Doe, but he hasn't broken federal law. If he says he lost it in a boating accident or says he traded it to a stranger for a Remington at a gun show and didn't keep the other guy's information, there's not a lot they can do.

Many people when selling a gun like to get a notarized bill of sale or go through an FFL for this reason. They don't want to be the last step on the paper trail if it comes up missing. Certain states may require FFLs for private sales, registration, a license for each gun, or listing all your CCWs on your license. These policies are not in place at the federal level or in many states, so the last FFL transfer is usually as far as they can trace it within the system.

Hope that answers your question

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I know a "paper only" copy of the transfer form is required to be held by the FFL for 10 years...

Nope, it's 20 years (27 CFR 478.129).

In any case, the authorities find the FFL who sold the gun by tracking back from the manufacturer or importer. They can then find the purchaser through the FFL's retained 4473s. The original purchase could then expect an LEO contact.

If the original purchaser had previously disposed of the gun, he will be asked about the transaction.

 

[rwilson452]

When a MFG makes a gun it is recorded. The MFG records which distributor the gun is sent to. The distributor records the FFL that the gun is sent to. The FFL records who they sell the gun to (4473). So they can trace the original owner. Usually the ATFE will not even try to trace a firearm over 7 years old. Individual states have different laws. Here in PA the state police keep a record of all pistol sales in the state.

 

[rajbcpa]

OK thanks.

Has the NRA or other groups or individuals tried to force the feds to stop maintaining the information on the transfer forms for short?? periods of time?

I believe the law is crystal clear that the feds may not keep a firearms registry but that is exactly what they are doing.

Isn't there any accountability in government? I have also read on many occasions here that the feds have taken photo copies of FFL records which is also prohibited under the law.

....good grief! Why do we have laws if the government ignores them?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Same reason we have laws that people ignore - we hope some legal avenue will be taken to correct such.

If one thinks that you cannot be identified as a gun owner very quickly - well, welcome to the computer age.

 

[claymore1500]

But...But, on television, they get a bullet out of a victim and two days later they are at the gun owner's house.

When they ask him, "Why did you shoot so & so" he spills his guts about every bad thing he's ever thought of doing.

I thought that's how it works, (Sarc. off)

 

[Gunfixr]

Well, several posts hit on how it works, but not really all of it right in the same answer. So here you go.
First, ffl dealers must keep all 4473s for a minimum of 20yrs. If you go out of business, they are to be handed over to atf.
The forms have the firearm info and the buyer info.
There is no time limit, they can and will trace a gun sold much farther back than 7 yrs.
No warrant or court order is required, they demand it, you had better hand it over. In fact, the ffl holder has 24 business hrs from contact to hand it over. Nowadays, its usually faxed.

So, gun found at crime scene, etc. Atf contacts manufacturer, gives them model, serial number. They tell atf when and to what distributor they sent it to. They then contact the distributor, tell them make, model, serial number, and when they got it, they tell atf what dealer they sent it to, and when. Then, atf contacts dealer, tells them make, model, serial number, what distributor they got it from and when. Dealer has 24 business hrs to send them the 4473 of whom they sold it to.

Now, they know the original purchaser. What happens next kind of depends. Is that person a suspect? If not, they will visit that person to see what they did with the gun, sell it, lose it, etc. Probably in their minds, of the original buyer isnt a suspect, they hope he sold it or gave it to the suspect. After all, the idea is to place it in the suspects hands at the time of the crime.
If he sold it to someone else, it starts to get dicey as far as the trace goes. You start getting into the i sold it to some guy through trading post, or something.
Since its not illegal to sell a gun you own, this isnt a big deal, unless you look good for a suspect, and cant show where the gun went. The only other problem is selling to a prohibited person, but it would have to be established beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew they were a prohibited person.
This is why a well filled out bill of sale that you make when selling a gun personally is a good idea, even if you know the person. It immediately takes the focus off of you.
You do this no matter how well you think you know the buyer, even if they are family. You just never know what will happen later.

 

[Gunfixr]

Using bullets to trace a gun is different. You need bullets, several, at least, and the gun.
Empty cases are the same way. One or two isnt sufficient.

 

[rwilson452]

If the original owner sold it to another ffl. them they need to to that ffl. For an older gun this process can get to the point it's a long paper chase that will lead to nowhere. Say a 20 year old gun. The original owner died. the owner's NOK is dead. no one in the family has a clue as to what the original owner did with the guns he/she had.

 

[carguychris]

I believe the law is crystal clear that the feds may not keep a firearms registry but that is exactly what they are doing.

Not exactly. The critical distinction is that the current 4473 record-keeping system essentially starts with the gun and leads to the buyer.

Going the other way—starting with a gun owner's name and determining what specific gun(s) she owns—is much less efficient in the absence of some sort of state or local registry, or at least some vague idea where the gun(s) may have been purchased.

 

[dogtown tom]

Gunfixr .... In fact, the ffl holder has 24 business hrs from contact to hand it over.....

Nope.....it's 24 hours period....not "business hours":

§478.25a Responses to requests for information.

Each licensee shall respond immediately to, and in no event later than 24 hours after the receipt of, a request by an ATF officer at the National Tracing Center for information contained in the records required to be kept by this part for determining the disposition of one or more firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. The requested information shall be provided orally to the ATF officer within the 24-hour period. Verification of the identity and employment of National Tracing Center personnel requesting information may be established at the time the requested information is provided by telephoning the toll-free number 1-800-788-7132 or using the toll-free facsimile (FAX) number 1-800-788-7133.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1140-0032)

[T.D. ATF-363, 60 FR 17451, Apr. 6, 1996, as amended by T.D. ATF-396, 63 FR 12646, Mar. 16, 1998; ATF-11F, 73 FR 57240, Oct. 2, 2008]

 

[22-rimfire]

I believe the law is crystal clear that the feds may not keep a firearms registry but that is exactly what they are doing.

I suspect that is probably true, but I have no way to prove or disprove it. If they want it, there can be huge amounts of information obtained for any adult in the US, especially ones that have a few years on them.

The traces are precisely why the anti-gun folks want a Federal Registry created. I see it as an infringement and ultimately would likely become a taxing source based on the firearms that you might own listed in the registry. They are big on creating taxes that do not require the legislature.

 

[FITASC]

Since its not illegal to sell a gun you own, this isnt a big deal, unless you look good for a suspect, and cant show where the gun went. The only other problem is selling to a prohibited person, but it would have to be established beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew they were a prohibited person.
This is why a well filled out bill of sale that you make when selling a gun personally is a good idea, even if you know the person. It immediately takes the focus off of you.

It isn't a big deal. They ask you, you say you sold it at a gun show, it is over. It is NOT your responsibility to prove your innocence in this scenario...

 

[22-rimfire]

It isn't a big deal. They ask you, you say you sold it at a gun show, it is over. It is NOT your responsibility to prove your innocence in this scenario...

I see it the same way. I always remember the episode on NCIS which is famous for checking if a gun is "registered". Do you own that 45 registered in your name? I sold it at a gun show and then he takes off running.... TV, oh my.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....The only other problem is selling to a prohibited person, but it would have to be established beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew they were a prohibited person....

Not exactly. The standard is "knew or had reasonable cause to believe" that the buyer was prohibited.

... They ask you, you say you sold it at a gun show, it is over....

Maybe and maybe not. It depends on the totality of the circumstances. I suspect that in most cases the police will have some more questions for you, and how you answer might affect how far the questions go. And remember that unless you've been arrested your silence, refusal to answer or evasive answers to questions can be used against you (Salinas v. Texas, Supreme Court, No. 12–246, 2013).

 

[SHR970]

22-rimfire wrote: I always remember the episode on NCIS which is famous for checking if a gun is "registered"

I remember the time that one of my handguns was run and the deputy said "It isn't registered.....you got a problem boy" Ironically I still had all of the paperwork in my vehicle and said "B.S.... I just picked it up yesterday... the paperwork is in my glovebox.. go a head and look!" And they found all of the Cali required paperwork for a sale from a dealer to a citizen. Guess what.....I still have that gun....sleep with it every night. Didn't go to jail...passed Go... laughed my ass off at them.

Guess what...registration systems are as good as the programmers that put them together. Put together by the lowest bidder!!!!

 

[jmr40]

Please explain how guns are traced by authorities

Short answer, in states with no registration it can be hard if not impossible when the gun is no longer owned by the original purchaser. The older the gun, and the more times it has changed hands the harder it gets.

 

[SHR970]

Frank Ettin wrote: Maybe and maybe not. It depends on the totality of the circumstances. I suspect that in most cases the police will have some more questions for you, and how you answer might affect how far the questions go. And remember that unless you've been arrested your silence, refusal to answer or evasive answers to questions can be used against you (Salinas v. Texas, Supreme Court, No. 12–246, 2013).

Correct me if I'm wrong Frank but in that particular case, the ruling was that the Fifth was not directly invoked / atrticulated to the police. Therefore their silence "COULD" be used against them. That is their silence and body language!

They did not make an affirmative statement that they wished to remain silent nor did they invoke their right to consult counsel.

We need to be very clear on this point as far as its implications on this discussion are.

 

[rg1]

Pretty much covered and the only thing I'd add is IF the gun was stolen definitely have a police report made so you can show what happened. Also, consider the reputation of anyone you know and don't sell to a thug. I won't buy private guns if the seller wants all my private info and me to sign "bills of sales". Just me. Also not mentioned is that if a FFL dealer goes out of business and closes his store, all the 4473 forms are sent to the Feds and don't know what they do with them. They are supposed to be destroyed after the time limit too. A "free" society does not want the local or federal government knowing where every firearm is and what type firearms you have. A corrupt government would definitely use it against civilians. Politicians today would abuse their office if they thought they could.