Dragline45
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I never gave it much thought, but I would fall under the Compressed ready position. From this position I can get my gun on target quicker than the others.
Pistol Ready Positions: Pros and Cons
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Theohazard
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Anyone who thinks the Sul position is bizarre or unnatural obviously hasn't practiced with it using the proper technique. I've used Sul since 1998 when I learned it from a Marine buddy. It's an extremely natural technique once you learn that all you're doing is rotating your support hand up close to your chest; your support hand is flat against your body yet it's still in a position to immediately grasp the gun in a two-handed grip.RX-79G said:
I like the Sul position because it safely brings the gun very close to your body for good retention, yet it's a very natural hold that allows you to bring the gun into action very quickly.
When tested against all the other positions, SUL is the slowest.
I also think if it was truly "natural" someone would have been using it before 1997.
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/ready-or-not
Good catch, Snyper. I went to the link and had never seen that article. It seems that Sul is slower than other ready positions, by some 0.22 of a second. However, the author makes a good point in the concluding paragraph.Snyper said:
I don't consider Sul a ready position. Never have. It's just another tool in the bag to help me get through the day. I don't think I'd use it in competition, but in the real world it works fine.
Wow! Lots of dug in toe nails against change around here. Good thing no one brought up the thumbs forward grip! 
Just out of curiosity, for those who dont use/approve of the SUL position, when the need arises, how do you move safely (and discretely) amongst people, or in tight spaces, and without telegraphing your gun, but having it instantly ready?
Can you move 360*, without, or I should say, with a greatly reduced chance of sweeping someone?
I look at SUL as the "base" that all others either start from, and/or eventually return to. As PawPaw said, it is just another tool in the bag, but for those of us who find it very versatile, it tends to be the main tool, that can easily and quickly turn into any of the others as needed, yet offers more than they do in the end.
That can be said for most of the other wizz bang stuff thats now, or ever was, once all the rage, dont you think? You can also follow that thought back to the caveman for anything if you think about it.
Just out of curiosity, for those who dont use/approve of the SUL position, when the need arises, how do you move safely (and discretely) amongst people, or in tight spaces, and without telegraphing your gun, but having it instantly ready?
Can you move 360*, without, or I should say, with a greatly reduced chance of sweeping someone?
I look at SUL as the "base" that all others either start from, and/or eventually return to. As PawPaw said, it is just another tool in the bag, but for those of us who find it very versatile, it tends to be the main tool, that can easily and quickly turn into any of the others as needed, yet offers more than they do in the end.
Theohazard
New member
OF COURSE it's slower, it's not a true ready position. I think you're completely missing the point here; the Sul position allows you to carry the firearm in a safe manner that allows for maximum retention, while still being very quick to bring into action if needed. But the Sul position is not designed to replace those other ready positions, it's simply another tool to use.Snyper said:
That's kind of a ridiculous statement. I find the thumbs-forward grip very natural ever since I learned it and started practicing it. That doesn't mean it's so natural that I should have invented it on my own.Snyper said:
Two points I would like to make:
1) As a non-leo, purely civilian, CCW-er, I am unlikely to ever have to move among a tight crowd of people with a drawn pistol. A police officer is much more likely to need that skill than me.
Nonetheless, I have practiced the SUL position a few times, and it seems natural to me, and I could immediately see the utility of the position. I admit it seemed odd at first, but I walked around my house, around corners and into tight spaces, and after a short time the SUL position seemed as natural as low-ready, but tighter and more compact. I notice the muzzle covered a spot between my feet, about a foot in front of me, which is about ideal.
I also noticed an easy transition from on-target to SUL back to on-target. To those who feel it is odd or unnatural, I would advise that they try it a few times.
2) Regarding the idea that if SUL was such a great idea, why was it not invented prior to 1997: Well, let me tell you a short story on the history of swimming. Humans have been swimming since the age of stone tools, probably before that. The fastest most efficient swimming stroke is what today we call freestyle, or the "front crawl"... This stroke was unknown in Europe, Asia, or Africa until the 1800s. The Native Americans of North and South America invented the front crawl technique, and it was introduced to Europe in an 1844 swimming competition. All the societies of Asia, Europe, and Africa, both primitive and advanced, over the course of 5000+ years, failed to discover the best method for swimming. To me this seems utterly astounding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_swimming
The point is that good ideas are often obvious after the fact, but can remain undiscovered for very long periods of time.
1) As a non-leo, purely civilian, CCW-er, I am unlikely to ever have to move among a tight crowd of people with a drawn pistol. A police officer is much more likely to need that skill than me.
Nonetheless, I have practiced the SUL position a few times, and it seems natural to me, and I could immediately see the utility of the position. I admit it seemed odd at first, but I walked around my house, around corners and into tight spaces, and after a short time the SUL position seemed as natural as low-ready, but tighter and more compact. I notice the muzzle covered a spot between my feet, about a foot in front of me, which is about ideal.
I also noticed an easy transition from on-target to SUL back to on-target. To those who feel it is odd or unnatural, I would advise that they try it a few times.
2) Regarding the idea that if SUL was such a great idea, why was it not invented prior to 1997: Well, let me tell you a short story on the history of swimming. Humans have been swimming since the age of stone tools, probably before that. The fastest most efficient swimming stroke is what today we call freestyle, or the "front crawl"... This stroke was unknown in Europe, Asia, or Africa until the 1800s. The Native Americans of North and South America invented the front crawl technique, and it was introduced to Europe in an 1844 swimming competition. All the societies of Asia, Europe, and Africa, both primitive and advanced, over the course of 5000+ years, failed to discover the best method for swimming. To me this seems utterly astounding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_swimming
The point is that good ideas are often obvious after the fact, but can remain undiscovered for very long periods of time.
Just a reminder that Sul was developed in response to a particular problem: How to have 4,5 or more men in tactical gear, with drawn weapons stand in a small space one behind the other without the weapons pointing at the next fellas back. This was in response to men shooting each other in just such situations.
So it was not developed until the maturity of the SWAT team and modern entry tactics. A problem of the last 20-25 or so years.
Variations of it have been used before by individuals in close spaces of course. But Sul arose as a team tactic and not an individual one and is different from a close weapon retention hold.
tipoc
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I would assume just the opposite. Most times, by the time the LE get there, all the action is over. It's the civilian in the movie theater, church, shopping mall, etc. that may need to move among a crowd with a drawn gun.
I keep hearing all that rhetoric repeated, but I stll see a gun gripped by just three fingers, pointed at your own toes, or someone elses if in a crowd, that's proven to be slower than other methods
It's just the latest "tacticool" gimmick that says "Look at me"
By pointing the muzzle UP, you can move safely in all directions, and never point it at your own feet
If I have a gun out ready to use, "discrete" doesn't come into play.
Odds of "the need arrising" are similar to being struck by lightning
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Except that pointing the muzzle up opens a whole 'nuther set of problems.Snyper said:
The latest gimmick was named in 1997? Dude, we've got to come up with newer stuff. I've been accused of lots of things, but "tacticool" isn't one of them.
If you don't like the position, fine, don't use it. I'm sure that you've got plenty of experience (55 years, I believe you said) which pretty much mirrors mine. I happen to find it eminently practical in a variety of situations. Like I said earlier, it's just another tool to get me through the day. I've been out of the SWAT business since 1991, and now I'm just a simple cop, trying to get through the day.
Heh! Yeah, I use both thumbs forward and thumbs down, depending on how I feel. Can't really see a benefit one way or the other.AK103K said:
Interesting. I tend toward Neutral Ready as a default, and move to Sul when moving or in more crowded areas. That said, recently, most of my practice has been square ranges where there is a definite safe direction to my front.
If someone said, "I want you to fire one shot from the ready, at the beep," I'd go to Neutral Ready nearly all the time.
I like natural ready as it feels the best to me. In the situations I'd most find myself in, it would also be the most practical, however Sul is something I'm now going to look into. However, in regards to the pointing up... Well it was explained to me this way by one of the local officers in my town when I was a kid. 'If your pointing up and happen to trip or fall, where is that barrel going to point?' Not an exact quote, but the gist of it. If i do happen to be in a situation where someone prefers that method, well I'll insist the walk in front of me... 
Well here's a thread from elsewhere that contains a few pics of the Sul position and variations of it (more natural and comfortable it seems to me) that some consider acceptable variations of the Sul position.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-tactical-training/61344-position-sul.html
Here also is a small video on it. The first few minutes are some background then he shows a few things and shows variations on it.
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/01/28/position-sul-training-video/
These may help a few think it through some.
tipoc
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-tactical-training/61344-position-sul.html
Here also is a small video on it. The first few minutes are some background then he shows a few things and shows variations on it.
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/01/28/position-sul-training-video/
These may help a few think it through some.
tipoc
Frank Ettin
Administrator
On the other hand, you have, by your own admission, no training in SUL and of course no experience with it.Snyper said:
So we can all better decide how much attention to give to your opinions, what sort of training have you had?
A major problem with the muzzle up is that the gun and you hands will be somewhere in your field of vision partially blocking your view.Snyper said:
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A major problem with the muzzle up is that the gun and you hands will be somewhere in your field of vision partially blocking your view.Only if you raise your hands too high.
Common sense would say not to do that
We can all manufacture scenarios to fit the agenda
What the facts show is SUL, (according to the man who invented it) teaches you to point a gun, held with just 3 fingers, "between your own feet", and you have to be extremely careful if you move at all
Even he said it's "not a ready position, it's a safety position"
People can use anything they like, but trying to say it's "faster", "safer" and "natural" appear to be more opinion than fact, as has been shown.
It takes no "training" to see and read the facts.
Is no one allowed to have an opinion (which is what the OP requested) unless they "took a class"?
The OP asked the question
I merely answered it, and showed facts to support what I stated.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
But if you hold the gun low enough to be out of your fields of vision, you would then be pointing the gun at or near your head. Plus, it's a very awkward hand position.Snyper said:
You may certainly have an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. We have now established what your opinion is based on and therefore have a better idea of how much attention your opinion warrants.Snyper said:
You have based your opinion on merely your impressions seeing position SUL. Others have based their opinions on actual training with the position and use of the position.
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