Pistol Caliber Effectiveness from a Medical Point of View

[Sharkbite]

Mine is about energy dump----impact. That's where that .45ACP shines in a less than perfect world.

Any adult male can swing a baseball bat with more energy then ANY defensive handgun caliber. The theory of "energy transfer" (in handgun calibers specifically) went out in the late '80s. When medical science and comparative ammo testing came together.

Currently all the medical experts agree. There is no Temp stretch cavity wounding in handgun calibers. The tissue is too elastic for it to occur at the slow impact velocities achieved with handguns. The exception is some of the non-elastic structures in the body. Brain & Liver come to mind.

Rifle impact velocities will cause such effect

Energy "dump" is a myth. Depth of penetration and the structures ACTUALLY hit by the bullet and damaged as a result is all there is.

 

[OldMarksman]

If you can hit your target at 50 plus feet, you can damn sure hit it at 5 feet!

Take someone who practices shooting at a stationary target at 50 ft. and see how he or she does firing very rapidly at a target moving at 5 meters per second at close range.

I think you will be surprised.

 

[4thPoint]

I don't have the study in front of me so take this as anecdotal if you wish but the statistic I heard was that about "90% of all gunshot wounds are survivable; if you make it to the emergency room with a heartbeat you will likely survive."

A 90% survival rate would indicate that it's almost immaterial what bullet construction, weight, or manufacturer there is. Do the best with what you can, don't be afraid to spend an extra .50 or dollar to ensure the threat is stopped.

 

[g.willikers]

Ah, redeemed.
The gun (and ammo) really is the least of it.
Thank you dirtd0g.
I mean Mr. dirtd0g.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by 4thPoint:

I don't have the study in front of me so take this as anecdotal if you wish but the statistic I heard was that about "90% of all gunshot wounds are survivable; if you make it to the emergency room with a heartbeat you will likely survive."

The survival rate is very high indeed these days.

That is completely irrelevant to the question of defensive effectiveness.

A 90% survival rate would indicate that it's almost immaterial what bullet construction, weight, or manufacturer there is.

Again, the survival rate indicates nothing at all.

To the extent that bullet weight, construction, and velocity affect penetration, this factors are indeed important.

See this from Sharkbite:

Depth of penetration and the structures ACTUALLY hit by the bullet and damaged as a result is all there is.

 

[g.willikers]

When a well known firearms instructor was asked what handgun he would recommend with the most fire power,
He replied when he thought of firepower, it involved supersonic aircraft and lots of missiles.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

While shooting out to 50-feet and beyond is fun for the giggles, if I'm relying on my handgun to shoot at those distances I brought the wrong weapon.

The problem isn't that you brought the wrong weapon, but that you didn't bring enough skill. You don't get to choose the distances for your conflict.

 

[44 AMP]

Energy "dump" is a myth.

Energy "dump" is a fact, any bullet that does not exit "dumps" all its energy in the target.

What people claim this does, or doesn't do calling their theory "Energy dump" is something different.

Depth of penetration and the structures ACTUALLY hit by the bullet and damaged as a result is all there is.

Absolutely, that is all there is, AFTER THE SHOOTING. And it's all that can be tested and replicated.

I believe that there is a response from a living body to the impact of a bullet. Something not consistent, or replicable in a lab. Call it "shock" or "knock down power", "Energy dump" or what ever name you can come up with. It exists. Living bodies sometimes clearly show a reaction, and sometimes, do not.

It is an instantaneous thing, happening (or not) as the bullet penetrates, and not something any after action examination can show.

IF you have seen enough live bodies shot (game animals or humans), you have seen some that have been "blown off their feet", and some that have simply dropped, and some that have shown no effect and run away, or continued to attack, (until the damage physically stops them).

I think that, when this happens, a body being "knocked down" by a round, it is not the energy (Ft/lbs) alone that does this. It is the live body, itself, nerve impulses firing muscles to twitch, causing the physical movement (knock down). Shoot a dead body with everything else the same, and you get a slight twitch of the material right at the impact and nothing else.

And I would note that the "knock down effect" can happen in whole, or part, or be absent entirely in any given situation.

There are no "standard" people, or animals, in the sense that each one is a different creature and can react differently to the same situation. While they all tend to fall into general groups, there is always a range of difference.

What you see in the ER or the autopsy is the permanent results, not what happened at the instant of being shot. Permanent results are quantifiable, and are the only sound basis for comparisons, etc.

However, there are the observed results of shootings that don't always track with the permanent results. There are no magic bullets, and everything that goes in the right place works. Its up to you to get it there, though.

I think my sig line says a lot...

 

[dirtd0g]

Does "under stressful conditions", mean while your wife is yelling at you, or while being shot at? It would be interesting to know how you simulate those "stressful conditions" in practice.

Swap my wife for an instructor who is not only yelling at me but making as much noise as he possibly can with his 870. Granted it isn't while "getting shot at" but it is MUCH more stressful than typical range conditions. I had no warning either.

The moral of the story .
NO CALIBER DOES IT ALL

155mm is getting close, though.

"This thing will take care of him! And his house! And everything else within a 30m radius!"​

Energy "dump" is a myth. Depth of penetration and the structures ACTUALLY hit by the bullet and damaged as a result is all there is.

Exactly... Unless you start talking large rifle calibers like .50 BMG on up. At those calibers a chest graze is very likely to become a severe thoracic trauma and an abdominal through-and-though is likely to become a guts-out episode.

"I hit him in the shoulder through steel plates and then his arm just fell off!"​

Take someone who practices shooting at a stationary target at 50 ft. and see how he or she does firing very rapidly at a target moving at 5 meters per second at close range.

I think you will be surprised.

Now, if you start practicing on MOVING targets at 50 ft. we may be getting somewhere! However, I would NOT draw a fair comparison between shooting at unrealistic ranges and running with ankle weights... Ankle weights make the same task that you will be doing later more difficult. Shooting at longer ranges is NOT a task you will be doing with a pistol; long range pistol shooting is a MUCH different skill than accurate defensive shooting. In a defensive situation you will most likely be within 7-yards or so. So make that as difficult as possible; shoot a string of targets, practice with one hand, practice with bad eye only, practice off balance, practice with strobes on and Miley Cyrus blaring over a sound system.

My CCW of choice...​

A 90% survival rate would indicate that it's almost immaterial what bullet construction, weight, or manufacturer there is. Do the best with what you can, don't be afraid to spend an extra .50 or dollar to ensure the threat is stopped.

Domestically gunshot survival rate is high. A lot of that may have to do with a ton of shootings taking place in urban areas where transport times to a trauma center are under 5 minutes... However, if the potential threat is calling an ambulance I would consider the job of halting the threat complete. I will spend the extra money on good rounds because I can. But, if all I had were those cheap boxes of Perfecta I use at the range I would be using those and relying on my shot placement to do the work.

When a well known firearms instructor was asked what handgun he would recommend with the most fire power,
He replied when he thought of firepower, it involved supersonic aircraft and lots of missiles.

I'll take an A-10, please... Maybe some Hellfire-slinging predator drones as wing-men.

"Get away from my house!"​

There's a lot of good discussion going on here. I'm proud of the community here for not letting this become some flame war of trolling spiteful responses.

And, to reiterate, I'm not saying that I would prefer cheap FMJ over nice defensive rounds. I am saying that BEFORE I even consider caliber or round choice I would take an individual's performance with their weapons into consideration first. While a few shots through the sternum with FMJ will undoubtedly be better than a few shots with fancy ammunition to non-critical areas, putting my Critical Defense rounds into the sternum will be even better...

But they have to end up there first.

 

[dirtd0g]

While shooting out to 50-feet and beyond is fun for the giggles, if I'm relying on my handgun to shoot at those distances I brought the wrong weapon.

The problem isn't that you brought the wrong weapon, but that you didn't bring enough skill. You don't get to choose the distances for your conflict.

SOMEONE is choosing the distances for the conflict, then. I would consider myself lucky if an assailant decided to open up on me with a pistol at those ranges. I have plenty of room to try and GTFO, find cover, call police. And, if he advances on my position across open ground his shots become more difficult while mine become easier.

Now, if the assailant opens up on me with a carbine or shoulder fired weapon and all I have is a pistol it would be to his advantage if I tried to exchange fire with him.

But, why would someone do that? I don't have enemies that want to kill me on sight. I doubt someone robbing me would shout, "give me your wallet" from 50-feet away and then start shooting... We're not talking combat, we're talking self-defense in the civilian world.

MOST domestic cases of gun violence occur within 25-feet or closer. Does this mean I don't take some shots at longer ranges? No! I like to see what I can hit and like to know how my CCW behaves at those distances. But I have yet to find a defensive pistol shooting course that covers long-range pistol shooting as a core concept. I am not going to put more effort into preparing for the far-fetched and extremely rare incidents... Especially when, all things considered, preparing to fire my weapon under duress in the real world is already extremely unlikely.

 

[Model12Win]

This is why my next gun will be a Glock 20 in 10mm.

Devastating stopping power AND high capacity.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Model12Win:

....a Glock 20 in 10mm.

Devastating stopping power AND high capacity.

"Devastating stopping power"?

If you do not hit anything vital, each shot will be only marginally more effective than a not 9MM, a .38 Super, a .40 S&W, and so on, IF AT ALL. If the shot goes through the target, the additional power needed to do that is wasted.

Now, the parts that are vital are small, moving, and concealed within a large three diminutional body mass that itself is moving. One cannot count upon marksmanship to hit them. One relies upon multiple shots fired quickly, and a stochastic result.

That requires control in fast shooting--ie, less recoil.

The 10MM is contraindicated for that.

 

[RaySendero]

Having read all this discussion, I have 2 things I take from it:

1) dirtd0g, thx. You have given me some insight from your experiences that I may never have gotten myself.

2) Y'all can certainly confuse anyone and everyone. "Yes it does matter/No it don't" i.e. shot placement, survivability, caliber, energy, drugs/adrenaline, penetration, incorrect practice(ing) etc., etc., etc.


Soooo... I'll just stay with my 45acp and my strategy to, if anyway possible, make that 1st shot count. Even if multiple bad guys, there will be one less I'll have to deal with in a SHTF situation.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by RaySendero:

I'll just stay with my 45acp and my strategy to, if anyway possible, make that 1st shot count.

At one time Rob Pincus recommended the .45. But read this.

 

[Buzzard Bait]

It has to be like walking

You have to practice shooting until it's like walking. When you practice and your telling your self watch the front sight now squeeze all of that is great but until it become like walking your not there. When you get out of the chair and walk out of the room you don't think left right left right now turn and left right you just do it. I heard Kim Rohde the skeet champion say that about her skeet shooting and she is right. You have to practice until you can "just do it"
bb

 

[OldMarksman]

You have to practice shooting until it's like walking.

I won't disagree wt that. But walking does not involve interaction with anything mechanical.

Rob Pincus uses several analogies. One that I remember is driving a stick shift car. Another one was trying to hit a ball with a bat.

But the idea is the same.

 

[manta49]

When you get out of the chair and walk out of the room you don't think left right left right now turn and left right you just do it. I heard Kim Rohde the skeet champion say that about her skeet shooting and she is right. You have to practice until you can "just do it"

Few people have the need interest time or money to train to that level.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by manta49:

Few people have the interest time or money to train to that [ don't think left right left right now turn and left right you just do it] level.

It's not about acquiring championship skills, it's about acting without thinking about it.

Realistically, tha't;s the only way one can expect to prevail in a violent defensive encounter.

 

[manta49]

Realistically, tha't;s the only way one can expect to prevail in a violent defensive encounter.

Possibly, but few in the police or army for example train to that level. But they are expected to prevail.

 

[dirtd0g]

Few people have the need interest time or money to train to that level.

It's not about acquiring championship skills, it's about acting without thinking about it.

Realistically, tha't;s the only way one can expect to prevail in a violent defensive encounter.

I have spent very little money on training and practice does not require a hefty financial investment. Take a course and then practice those key concepts at the range or at home. Go get a $50 airsoft pistol and some protective eye-wear and practice drawing and firing from retention. Make a day out of it, invite some friends over, everyone take turns attacking each other with Wiffle bats, have a few beers afterwards. Go nuts.

The idea is to get everything down to muscle memory.

THAT is what training really is. Repeating an action correctly so often that when it comes time to utilize that action in real life it "just happens".

There is no true replacement for good training with an attentive instructor and live rounds... But you can and SHOULD approximate that to the best of your ability as often as possible.