Picking brass at range, not allowed!

Buck460XVR said:
Iffin the state wants to collect brass from it's free public ranges and use it to by backerboards and target stands, why would anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence, complain?
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A contract is a contract. If the rules say once it hits the ground it's theirs, then once it hits the ground it's theirs.

But why would anyone who reloads NOT complain about that? New brass is moderately costly. For example, I mostly shoot (and load) .45 ACP. It's a low-pressure round, so I can easily reload the same case 20 to 40 times (maybe more, but I've never knowingly gone more than 40).

If I can bring my brass home and reload it, with that many reloadings the brass is effectively free, so my reloading cost is only for powder, primers, and bullets. If I have to buy new brass every time I load, that adds a significant percentage. Starline gets $94/500 rounds for .45 ACP brass. That's an additional 19 cents per round, which basically doubles my cost.*

Seems to me that any person with a reasonable amount of intelligence would have to complain about a range policy that makes shooting twice as expensive.


* Powder runs about $20/pound. My load is 5.3 grains. Figure 5.5 to allow for spillage, and 1 pound is 7000 grains. Powder cost comes to 1.6 cents per round.

Primers at Powder Valley run $28/1000, so that's 2.8 cents per round.

I use Berry's bullets. Their 230-grain plated round nose is $75/500. That's 15 cents per round.

So my total cost to reload is 19.4 cents per round. If I have to spend 19 cents per round to buy new brass every time out, that doubles my cost, and gets me very close to the point of just going to Walmart and buying Winchester white box.
 
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Yes, gov't ranges can and do sell used brass. I got to go to the Arkansas State Police range once & there was a 55-gallon drum of mostly .223 and .45 sitting there.

That said, I do try to keep my brass. For 3 years now, I've kept saying I was going to get into reloading, and I still intend to. I have enough 9mm and .45 brass to get a pretty good start going. If it's my brass when I pull into the parking lot, it's my brass when I pull out. I call ahead before I go to a range and if they have the "ours if it hits the floor" rule, I'll go somewhere else. Fortunately (& crossing fingers for luck), none of the ranges around here have that rule. They'll keep it if you leave it, and they'll sell it, but you will be allowed to pick up your own brass.
 
Spats McGee said:
They'll keep it if you leave it, and they'll sell it, but you will be allowed to pick up your own brass.
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And that's fair. Enough people don't reload that the ranges probably won't miss whatever brass the reloaders take home. I know the range where I shoot (indoor, commercial) sells used brass, but he allows those of us who reload to take our brass home. I load mostly .45 ACP and I've sort of settled on Winchester brand, so if I see someone else shooting Winchester I often ask if they want the brass or if I can have it. They usually give it to me, and the owner doesn't object to that, either.

If he were to institute a "It's mine if it hits the floor" rule, I guess I'd have to buy a brass catcher, and shoot revolvers a lot more.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
But why would anyone who reloads NOT complain about that? New brass is moderately costly. For example, I mostly shoot (and load) .45 ACP. It's a low-pressure round, so I can easily reload the same case 20 to 40 times (maybe more, but I've never knowingly gone more than 40).

If I can bring my brass home and reload it, with that many reloadings the brass is effectively free, so my reloading cost is only for powder, primers, and bullets. If I have to buy new brass every time I load, that adds a significant percentage. Starline gets $94/500 rounds for .45 ACP brass. That's an additional 19 cents per round, which basically doubles my cost.*
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Aguila Blanca, since this is a reloading forum, most everybody here knows what the relative costs of components is. Not really the point here.


Aguila Blanca said:
Seems to me that any person with a reasonable amount of intelligence would have to complain about a range policy that makes shooting twice as expensive.
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Even if that range is free and their brass policy is about keeping the range free? Is there a difference in paying $30 a hour/$150 a year to shoot at a range and be able to keep your brass? Is there a rule against brass catchers? Good ones for 1911s can be had for under $30. I'm lucky, I have my own personal range where I can keep all my brass. last year it cost me several hundred dollars to buy 8 new steel gongs, hardware and 12, 8'x5" wooden fence posts to make stands for them.The year beofre I spent several hundred dollars to make a covered shooting platform and a bench. The year before that I spent several hundred dollars on a electric trap. All the brass and hulls I've picked up in those three years had not come close to covering my costs. Still, I'm not whining.

Some folks just like to whine. Kinda where the expression "he'd complain iffin you hung him with a new rope" comes from. For some reason unknown to me, Gun forums seem to attract whiners. Thing is, most of us are not forced to shoot anywhere. We have a choice. The choices available to us might not be exactly what we want, but that's life. Sometimes we just need to suck it up and move on. The OP had a legitimate question. He should be able to get a legitimate answer from the Indiana DNR website. Whining about something we know nuttin' about is kinda fruitless at best.
 
this is a reloading forum, most everybody here knows what the relative costs of components is. Not really the point here.
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But, for some of us, cost is the point. Now, if their policy is "we keep all brass" or something like that, AND its clearly written where you can read it, and you agree to use that range anyway, then you have nothing to gripe about. You agreed to it!

But, if they don't, if its just something they do, not written, not informing you beforehand, then I've got issues with that, and while their range, their rules, I don't have to go there.

Maybe leaving $10-15-20+? worth of common brass is no big deal to you. But there's a huge difference between leaving brass and being told you can't pick it up. And a difference between not being allowed to pick up other brass, and not being allowed to retrieve YOUR brass.

And what about the few of us who don't just shoot 9mm .40,.45acp?? what about when your "case cost" isn't $0.20 each but $1.50 or more?

I am VERY ..reluctant to let .44AMP, .357AMP, and even .45Win mag cases "escape" and I'm damn sure not willingly throwing them away, or leaving them lie for others to pick up.

If they claim my brass because it landed on their ground, and I know that in advance, the only shooting I'm doing on that range will be manually operated actions (where I can control the ejection and not let my brass hit their ground), .22LR (which I don't care about the spent cases) or, none.
 
44 AMP said:
But, for some of us, cost is the point. Now, if their policy is "we keep all brass" or something like that, AND its clearly written where you can read it, and you agree to use that range anyway, then you have nothing to gripe about. You agreed to it!

But, if they don't, if its just something they do, not written, not informing you beforehand, then I've got issues with that, and while their range, their rules, I don't have to go there.
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There's my point. The only argument is whether or not it is or is not the state's public range policy. The answer we won't know until the OP gets a reply. As for the posting of the rules on the grounds, I don't know if it's necessary. In my state, you are responsible to know the rules, without them being posted. You are responsible for knowing if the land you are on is public or private and if private, who it belongs to without it being posted. Saying I didn't see a sign is not an excuse for trespassing. Thousands of miles of trout streams in my area, each has a designation and a size/bag limit. Not all are the same. No posting at all along the streams themselves, you have to research/inquire and know before you wet a line. Many places where it has been posted, folks tear the signs down so they can claim they didn't know. Could be the same at the OPs gun range.

44 AMP said:
Maybe leaving $10-15-20+? worth of common brass is no big deal to you. But there's a huge difference between leaving brass and being told you can't pick it up. And a difference between not being allowed to pick up other brass, and not being allowed to retrieve YOUR brass.

And what about the few of us who don't just shoot 9mm .40,.45acp?? what about when your "case cost" isn't $0.20 each but $1.50 or more?

I am VERY ..reluctant to let .44AMP, .357AMP, and even .45Win mag cases "escape" and I'm damn sure not willingly throwing them away, or leaving them lie for others to pick up.

If they claim my brass because it landed on their ground, and I know that in advance, the only shooting I'm doing on that range will be manually operated actions (where I can control the ejection and not let my brass hit their ground), .22LR (which I don't care about the spent cases) or, none.
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Believe me, I have brass that costs $1.50 a piece and I treasure it. I also go to great lengths to save even my .45ACP brass. But it's cost is just relative to the overall cost of shooting. If it costs me $50 a day to shoot, does it matter if I spent the $50 on brass instead of range fees and gas? Isn't $50, fifty bucks? Again, if the DNR guy is making up his own rules as he goes along, there's a reason to complain. Iffin he's just doing his job and it means the range will continue to be supported and cost nuttin' to shoot there, where's the gripe? As you said, iffin you don't like the rules, go somewhere else. If there's no where else to go, you gotta do what you gotta do, but whining about it on a internet forum ain't gonna change it.
 
If they claim my brass because it landed on their ground, and I know that in advance, the only shooting I'm doing on that range will be manually operated actions (where I can control the ejection and not let my brass hit their ground), .22LR (which I don't care about the spent cases) or, none.
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This is the sort of situation in which a gentleman says to the other, "hey, I'm shooting a broomhandle and the brass costs nearly $1 apiece. I'm not really happy with the idea of leaving it behind. Can I take my own?"

A gentleman is gonna say yes. "Take your own, don't scavenge other brass all the way up the line. sweeping that stuff up helps with expenses."

My guess would be that you will never hear "sure, you can take it back home with you. that'll be $1 apiece and you have to pick them up yourself. Now show me how many you have, and pay in advance."
 
As already mentioned and going back to the OP, I think the issue really is prior consent. If you give it, fine, that is a contract of some form even if it is just verbal. Even a large clear sign is satisfactory. What is not satisfactory is being ambushed with information about this policy after you've already done your shooting. I don't believe anyone thinks that is fair.
 
What is not satisfactory is being ambushed with information about this policy after you've already done your shooting. I don't believe anyone thinks that is fair.
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I'd say that's pretty spot on.

We often agree to things we don't really know we are, when we think we do. Do you really read ALL the fine print for everything, every time? Most of us don't, especially for things that we already "know" how it works.

it's mine, it came with me, and its going home with me, its the common and accepted way, until it isn't, and you agreed to it, by not objecting and using the facilities / product. IF you don't realize you've agreed to it, that's not their problem, now is it??

One case I heard of, I got a bit of a kick out of, involved a rental car, a while back. A guy rents a car, uses it for a couple day, turns it back in, pays with card, all normal, then his card gets hit with several hundred dollars in charges from the rental contract. Naturally, he disputes them. And loses.
Because, in the fine print he didn't bother with, was the provision that if he did anything illegal with the car, they could add on charges (fines/penaties).

What he did was speed. The cops never caught him, he never got a ticket, but the GPS in the car caught him. No matter what you claim, when you get from point A to B faster than the legal speed limit will allow you to cover that distance, you're speeding. So he wound up having to pay, because he DID sign the contract, agreeing to!!
 
It has also gone far astray from the fact that he wasn't even collecting his own brass, he was collecting brass that was discarded (left behind) by other people at another station.

But, that's the way it works.

So I walked up to the group and kindly asked is they reload and said no. Then I asked if I could pick up if they didn't want it or need it. They said help yourself, thank them and started picking up.
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Send me all of your worthless 9mm brass, please. I cast for it.
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haha , yeah , no . I meant at least for me the cost of 9mm is pretty much zero ( worthless ) by the time it's been reloaded several times . I think I get 1k pieces for $40 . after 5 to ten reloads that cost per round fired it almost nothing . That's what I mean by worthless , I could have worded that better :)
 
The two ranges I shoot at are pretty good about brass. Pick up your own, and any left laying around, they don't care.
However there is a newish indoor range that has the "when it hits the floor it's ours" rule. I've only shot there twice, but to avoid losing my brass I switched to a .45acp revolver and also shoot rimfire. They can have all of that they like. The .45 brass is in moon clips and it goes home with me. They're fine with this.

I've shot 9mm there, and since I have so much 9mm brass on hand I didn't worry about picking it up. In fact, I even bought a box or two of their ammo to shoot and left that brass. It was kind of comical the last time I went there, I put my bag near my position. Well, just for the heck of it the bag captured about 25 pieces of 9mm brass by accident.

I'll have to remember that trick, as inadvertent as it was. You can shoot pistol caliber rifles there; I'll have to see if they're okay with brass catchers on the rifles.
 
Briandg, actually I was collecting my own brass. I did mentioned the bag I had did contain my own brass.

So I got a response this weekend and this is what I received:

"It has always been the rule that no brass picking was allowed. We did not enforce it until this year. It is difficult to post every rule. That's why we have range safety officers. We will try and get something posted. As for your claim that our range safety officer was picking brass, we will check it out and take any necessary action.

Thanks for your interest in shooting at our range."

Well I do have a brass catcher for the AR, well now it will be a good time to use that and will only stick to bolt action shooting where I will have more control about collecting my own brass and the regular 22lr shooting.

I guess I should have recorded the guy picking up so they can see I wasn't lying, lol.
 
If the rule is "if it hits the ground, it's ours," and just because I'm a word-slicing lawyer, I'd put a tarp down. If it lands on the tarp, it hasn't "hit the ground."
 
Erosion of private property rights is a necessary first stage of wealth redistribution. Its all part of the transition of the Republic to the Empire. It was natural and inevitable in Rome, and no different today.

Find a national forest... great spots, no centurions or paying tribute to Rome!! :)
 
Erosion of private property rights
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I'm not sure how any of this pertains to private property rights. It's a simple matter of contract law. The owner of that property, whether it is a government owned range or privately owned range makes the rules and the persons whom he allows to use that range must obey the rules and conditions. If one of those conditions are that the shooter leaves his brass behind as an additional source of income for the range owner there is a choice. Sign the agree to the conditions set by the private property owner, or betray your oath to obey the rules.

just the cost of covering liability insurance for a private range is astronomical. all it takes is one bonehead shooting at a crow overhead with his .300 magnum and that round may drop into a car, a person, a home, and the lawsuit could run into millions in a settlement.

The range near my home has a highway visible past the berms, seriously, a guy with his .50 bmg could drop a round into bumper to bumper if he goes a bit over the berms.
 
Spats McGee said:
If the rule is "if it hits the ground, it's ours," and just because I'm a word-slicing lawyer, I'd put a tarp down. If it lands on the tarp, it hasn't "hit the ground."
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Using the same mindset tho, if the rule is "if it hits the ground" wouldn't that cover the tarp too? Would you not only loose your brass, but the tarp also?

I'm always puzzled, why we as gun owners try to impress upon others how responsible we are, and then come up with rationale like this suggesting to break or bend State/Federal regs/rules. It really puzzles me when it's a moderator or "staff" of a respectable internet forum that is suggesting it to it's members. Makes the words responsible and respectable loose their meaning.

The response to the OP tells us that retrieving your spent brass is a no-no. It didn't tell us why. It did say why the rules aren't posted and that there would be a investigation into the claim of the RO there, cherry-picking. That should be enough. One does not have to do a lengthy search on any of these internet gun forums to find threads about shooting ranges on public land being closed down. The reasons are generally because a few butt orifices think the rules don't apply to them. It's those few butt orifices that ruin it for all those that are responsible and follow the rules. Hard to believe anyone would want to brag about being one of them. But then it's easy to thump your chest and make whatever statements you want on the internet. The anonymity and the lack of follow-up makes so proving such claims impossible.

It's a free public range. Most folks would give their eye teeth to have a nice one within a reasonable distance of their home. Easy for others that don't have to rely on them for their primary shooting, to tell others to abuse that privilege or to challenge their rules. I'd rather we be responsible and tell folks that's the way it is and to show respect for what the state is asking in return for the privilege of shooting there. That's all I ask from others that shoot at my private range. Otherwise they have to find somewhere else.
 
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