physics question about bullets

Status
Not open for further replies.
paper written by a Dr Ashby

So he tested (which is interesting):

arrow 700 @150= 34.96 ft/lb energy
arrow 390 @300= 77.92 ft/lb energy

But why didn't he test:(with same energy)

arrow 700 @224= 77.92 ft/lb energy
arrow 390 @300= 77.92 ft/lb energy

He didn't show any depth figures(unless I missed them).

The test with bullets into petroleum jelly... Bullets do not fall point first. They fall sideways or maybe base first.
I put them in a slightly leaning tube so they would fall nose first.
 
Last edited:
Heavier bullets do have more recoil...


I think that trying to look at this in a pure science way can be the problem.

As real world testing shows that equal kinetic energies in bullets of different weight but same caliber favor the heavy bullet for penetration.

In a ballistics test... energy values will rarely be the same. Given the same firearm or bow, velocities will be different and energies different.

Even though a bow should impart an equal force to the arrow if drawn to the same pull.




A leaning tube... you will create friction forces that will effect the outcome. The heavier bullet is longer and will have higher friction.

Also the velocities will be affected a good bit. Final energy figures could be skewed.

Or the effect may be small overall, hard to really quantify fully.


Wait wait...

I did some quick calculations. assuming a vertical tube.

Take the spheres or bullets into a viscous fluid glycerin, or in Woodslabs tests petroleum jelly.

There is only a small difference in momentum values as well. The energy and momentum values are too small and too similar to make a noticeable effect.

Energy values In Woodslab's tests were a little off, with a small favor to the lighter bullet, and momentum values were also only slightly different with a small favor to the heavier.

The difference in values were very small. To the point of margin of error for both values, kinetic energy and momentum... and not even discernible within the testing set up. We are talking differences measurable in a hundred micrometers between the two.

A less vicious fluid would increase the differences between them, but even still, a few millimeters at most. Well within a margin of error factor for such a setup.
 
Last edited:
This thread should've ended here on page 1:

Brian Pfleuger: said:
Guys....

Stop talking about kinetic energy.

Kinetic energy is not responsible for penetration.

Momentum is responsible for penetration.

Kinetic energy can be (and is) lost to all sorts of other, non-movement sources. Friction, bullet deformation, heat, etc.

Momentum is a vector quantity and always conserved in both quantity and direction.

Momentum is responsible for penetration, NOT kinetic energy.

I agree with mehavey-

9gx6cl.jpg
 
Here's a simplified (but accurate) way to interpret kinetic energy and momentum when it comes to bullets.

All else being equal:

A bullet with more momentum goes deeper.
A bullet with more kinetic energy makes a bigger "splash".
 
One of the ideas getting tossed around here in this thread is that momentum is responsible for penetration, not kinetic energy. Strictly speaking, this isn’t true, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE IT IS. Penetration of bullets into soft targets tends to be proportional to momentum more so than to energy.

What do we mean by Soft target: a material which is not linearly elastic, but which behaves more like a fluid. Examples would be bees wax, soap, animal tissue, ballistic gelatin, modelers clay.

When a bullet impacts a soft target, it arrives with a certain velocity, and the combination of its mass and velocity give it a certain energy. The mass and velocity also give it a certain level of momentum.

Physical laws help predict how deep the bullet will penetrate. One law is the conservation of energy. Another law is the conservation of momentum… Both laws apply all the time, but only one of these laws is useful in predicting how deep the penetration will be, and that is the conservation of energy law.

Lets make a simplifying assumption that the bullet is non-expanding, and it remains undeformed. Let’s also assume that the bullet travels into the target in a straight line and does not yaw.

When the bullet arrives at the target, it has a certain level of energy, and this energy allows it to do work, and that work is penetrating into the target. The more energy the bullet has, the further it can penetrate. But it is not a linear relationship. Twice the energy does not give twice the penetration. In water, twice the energy gives you about 20% more penetration at typical rifle velocities. Other factors are at play here.

One factor is friction: the bullet must use some energy to overcome friction, and in most soft media, friction goes up as velocity goes up. So if the bullet arrives on target with twice the energy, it has (by math) 41% more velocity, and this higher velocity means higher friction forces slowing the bullet down, stealing its precious energy.

Another factor is wave making, or dynamic displacement: The bullet as it moves through the target, is not cutting through like a knife. It is pushing its way through as a blunt object, and it has to shove a large amount of material in front of it, and to the sides of it. This material must be accelerated up to the bullets velocity. In other words, the bullet creates a pressure and velocity wave through the target. This takes energy, and the faster the bullet, the faster and more powerful the pressure/velocity wave. The bullet must use its precious energy to create this wave. The faster the bullet, the more energy is lost in the pressure/velocity wave.

If ALL the energy in the bullet was used purely to cut through the target material, you would expect that twice the energy would give you twice the penetration. But unfortunately, it is not so. You do get more, but not a lot more. There is a lot of wasted energy, and the faster the bullet, the more waste.

In the real world, it is possible that more energy can result in LESS penetration… certainly with expanding bullets this is possible. For instance, fire a handgun HP bullet at rifle velocities, and the bullet will disintegrate rapidly before it achieves a deep penetration. A 125 gr JHP bullet at 3000 ft/sec has an impressive energy of 2500 ft-lb, but it uses all this energy up destroying itself in the first few inches of target material.

Energy is proportional with velocity squared, but observation has shown that penetration into soft media is more proportional to velocity… So doubling the velocity might get you about double the penetration, even though the energy has gone up by a factor of 4…

Now keep in mind that momentum is proportional to velocity, and this has lead people to believe that momentum “causes” penetration. Penetration is proportional to momentum, but only by coincidence. This leads to a lot of arguments, because the people who say this are backed up by empirical evidence… but they got just a little bit confused on the theory.

Bottom line, if I was going to write a simulation code to model a bullet penetrating a soft media, I would model all the energy terms. I would use the law of conservation of energy. The law of conservation of momentum would not be useful to me. Broadly speaking, I do this kind of work… computer simulation using physical laws.

Hope this helps !

Jim
 
Ok... Second law of motion

Force... to stop an object you apply negative acceleration. F=m*a... Force = mass times acceleration. Acceleration is a function of change in velocity over time.

Breaking it down we get

F=m*v/t (t=time)

more breaking down we get

F*t=m*v (and as we know m*v is momentum)

How do we calculate the time we need for a constant negative acceleration force to bring m*v to zero?

Simple we solve for t

Given a known momentum and a known negative acceleration... its easy.

Lets look at 10 grams at 305m/s (thats about 150gr and 1000fps)
Constant negative deceleration of 2N (newtons, 1kg m/s^2)

Energy is 30.5J
momentum is 3.05 kg m/s

Plug those numbers in
2N*t=3.05 kg m/s

So 3.05 kg m/s divided by 2N = t

The squared time component of N is countered by time component of m/s which cancels out the square. The meters cancel, leaving only time in seconds.

Leaving us with
t=1.525 seconds

Now lets look at 7g at 364.5m/s same 2N force (about 110gr and 12fps)

Energy is the same 30.5J
Momentum is 2.55 kg m/s

t=1.275 seconds


Wouldn't a bullet going faster travel farther in a shorter time frame?

So lets calculate the distance traveled over the course of that amount of time and find out.

Distance traveled = Velocity x time + (acceleration x time^2) / 2

The answer for both is 463m
(I did this using a 50gr bullet as well, for the heck of it, it came out to 461.5m, very close, I would chalk that difference up to rounding error, in fact 463 was not exactly the answer for the above scenarios, but they both could round to 463... once again, the difference can be attributed to rounding errors in the calculations.)

Whoa... seems like someone above was right...


Yes given a constant negative acceleration force...


And that is were I made my mistake... I was giving examples in a manner where outside forces were constant...

But I was thinking in terms of forces within a fluid, or semi-solid/fluid where they are not constant.


Whenever an object moves through a fluid... there is drag.

Drag is related to a few things.

The viscosity of the fluid... that's an obvious one, but lets look into the drag formula.

Force of drag = .5(density of fluid*v^2*drag coefficient*cross sectional area)

You can think of drag coefficient as being similar to the Ballistics coefficient.


But what is that in there? v^2... velocity squared.

Drag is related to the square of the velocity. So changes in velocity have a big effect on the drag force. (this is why as a car goes faster, it gets harder to gain speed, and more power is needed to maintain speed... and why MPG is less at high speeds)

Drag force is what slows down and stops the bullet.

So the negative acceleration force will not be the same between two bullets...

(also of note is the sectional area figure... this is why direct comparisons between calibers is not applicable to this discussion, though maybe in the practical use of these bullets it may be of importance, as results are what matters there)

This means that the lighter faster bullet will experience a greater force acting to slow it down, meaning the time it takes to slow to a stop will be quicker still.


So, higher drag forces, mean faster deceleration, and a quicker loss of momentum, even as the drag forces decrease with decreased velocities, the lower starting momentum is working against the bullet.

This all culminates in a lighter faster bullet that penetrates less in test medium than a slower heavier bullet with higher momentum.


There are ways to calculate the ever changing drag force, and the changing momentum, velocity and effects of all that on length of travel... but they are too much for my brain at 1:30am with work at 7am

Plus I am sure a computer algorithm would be needed to make it practical to calculate.


All being said, I am confident that the numbers, when calculated with the variables over time, will work out to showing slower but heavier bullets will penetrate farther than lighter faster ones. As they already work out that way with basic calculations of different drag forces.



Edit:
btmj... I think you are forgetting the effects of force acting against movement. Movement is momentum... Or it is more directly related to momentum.

Forces acting on an object to slow it down, act upon the objects momentum directly... The laws of motion show this. As momentum decreases, energy also decreases. This is where I think many go wrong. They think a decelerating force acts upon the energy directly.

Momentum and energy is transferred to the media that the bullet travels through... not just energy.

A Newton's cradle is a demonstration of the conservation of momentum and energy... you can not do the calculations to predict its movements if you ignore momentum in favor of energy.


The important factor is how force is calculated and acts upon a system... Which as I mentioned is directly upon momentum. Energy loss is a byproduct.
 
Last edited:
... F=m*a... Force = mass times acceleration ...

In that case, any object moving at a constant speed has zero force. That applies whether the object is moving at 10mph or 1000mph.

In pure physical terms, this is actually true, and serves to illustrate how people misapprehend the term, often confusing it with energy.

If force is what you are "applying" to gain penetration ... how much penetration do you get from a force of zero? How much "work" does zero do? A car moving at a constant speed of 50mph has a force of zero ... wanna tell me that it won't penetrate anything?

Now suppose we compare a car moving at a constant 100mph to one which is moving at 10mph but accelerates at 1m/s. Would you seriously offer the opinion that after a distance of 10 feet, the slower car is going to do more damage to a wall (i.e. "work") than the faster car, because its calculated force is greater?

"Force" does not "do work" ... "energy" (KE) does work. That simple fact cuts through a whole bunch of nonsense.
 
"...any object moving at a constant speed [is experiencing] zero force." [meh edited]
(Now we have a correct statement)

However, stopping that object [i.e., decceleration] does require force, and the deccelerating Force x the Distance that object takes to stop in becomes the Work [Energy] expended.

~~~~~~~~~~

BTW: If one does the math, it takes the equivalent of a stick of TNT to stop that car.
 
Ok, my head is now spinning, at one turn in 36" twist rate....

All the factors, energy, mass, speed, momentum, etc., are all inter-related. And we are arguing about which one does what, or so it seems to me.

I realize this isn't quite like 4 guys rowing a boat, one steering, and a having a sail set, and asking which one gets the boat where it is going? but it is sure feeling like it now....

If the weight (mass) is different, and the speed the same, the energy is different. If the mass is different and the energy is the same, the speed is different.

The combination of factors that give the best penetration is a soft target are different from those that give the best penetration in a hard target.

Generally, observed results show heavier bullets penetrate more in a soft target than lighter ones. Faster bullets penetrate more in a hard target than slower ones.

Regardless of what you can "prove" with math, or computer models, all I need is knowing what the real world results show. And for that, I'll stand by my sig line...Thanks for playing!:D
 
Yes... At constant speed it experiences no external force. It still carries momentum and kinetic energy values. When that object comes on contact with another object, it will experience a force proportional to the momentum lost/transferred.

A projectile through test medium experiences a negative acceleration force, that causes the projectile to lose momentum over time as it transferres to the medium.


Where the work and energy come in...

When that lighter bullet going faster, stops in a shorter time and distance, all kinetic energy is shed in that distance and time.

More work is done in a given area. Energy transfer is acomplished over a smaller linear distance.

An example in a bullet would be the larger cavity and short penitration left in test gel from a light fast round... Compared to a smaller cavity but deeper penitration of the slower heavier round.


Work is the effect on the media, in the form of energy transfer causing larger deformation radially away from the path of the projectile.

Mementum governs linear travel.



To put it another way...

Momentum is a vector quantity... it is always linear.
Force is also a vector quantity... it is also linear.

Energy is not a vector, it has no direction, it does not matter the direction, the energy is there and can do work.


Look at planets. They have momentum... and it is in a straight line. Remove the suns gravity, and the planets will fly off in straight lines tangent to their current path of orbit.

A ball on a string will do the same.

The planets orbit due to the sum of all forces and their own momentum resulting in a circular path.

This linear aspect of momentum and force is why they dictate penetration, as penetration is a linear quantity.

The projectile wants to move in a straight line, and the force from moving through a medium acts in the opposite direction, both are linear.

Energy dictates the deformation of the media, as the energy is transferred radially away from the path of the projectile.


Look at the math for a bullet through air. The math is exactly the same as through gel test media. The density of the fluid is different, but you do the math the same.

The math shows that heavier but slower bullets better retain their energy and momentum down range. The only reason why the trajectories are different and the slower bullet may fall to earth faster, is that due to the much much greater distances involved, gravity becomes a major player.

Over the short distances in test media we are discussing, gravity can pretty much be ignored as insignificant to the result.



44amp... Yes, that is the real world results, they are proven by math... Some are applying it incorrectly.
 
Last edited:
44amp... Yes, that is the real world results, they are proven by math...

Disagree, slightly.

Real world results are not proven by anything. They exist, as fact.
The math can explain what happens, or how it happens, but proves, nothing.
:D
 
Yes... true.

Math is proven by tests and results... But you know what I meant. :p

Better way of putting it would be... The real world results exist and the math falls in line with those results.

I added a bit again to the above... if you care to read it.
 
Last edited:
A tale of a potato and a nail...

I decided to do an experiment to show how this works.

I got a 3" nail, a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe, a potato and a piece of 1 1/2" pvc pipe.

The piece of 1/2" pipe is 8' 7" long. I used it as a guide for the nail. The math (2gh=v^2) says that an object falling 8' 7" will reach 23.4fps. The nail weighs in at 78.8gr.

The nail, traveling 23.4fps, has a KE ((mv^2)/450240) of 0.958 ft-lbs and a momentum of 0.03782 kg-m/s.

Four times, I dropped the nail down the pipe and measured the penetration into the potato. The results were 0.545", 0.504", 0.538" and 0.530" for an average of 0.529"

The potato weighed 568gr. In order for the potato to have the same kinetic energy as the nail(simply mv^2=mv^2), it would have to fall 14 1/8" and reach a speed of 8.71fps.

The potato would have a kinetic energy of 0.958ft-lbs (identical to the nail) but a momentum of 0.0977 kg-m/s. Note that the momentum is 2.58 times higher, with an identical KE.

I did 4 tests, dropping the potato down the 1.5" pvc pipe, onto the nail, from a distance of 14 1/8".

The penetrations were 0.759", 0.630", 0.607" and 0.702" for an average of 0.674".

On average, the nail penetrated the potato 0.145" (27.4%) farther when the potato was falling than when the nail was falling.

We live in a relativistic universe. The universe does not care if the nail is moving or the potato is moving. If kinetic energy were the deciding factor in penetration, there would be no difference in the results. The KE was identical.

Momentum, however, was not identical. The penetration averaged 27.4% higher because it's NOT KE that influences penetration, it is momentum.
 
I think you meant "dropped potato onto the nail"... not "onto the potato".


But nice test.


You were able to get an energy value that was the same and a momentum value that was substantially larger.

The other test had the energy levels the same and also near momentum levels. Making it impossible to distinguish which force was at play in determining penetration. The speeds and masses were just too similar to separate the different factors.


Different bullets at typical velocities from a handgun have enough difference in momentum to see an effect.
 
So let me ask you this then, why do we care about KE? Why don't we discuss (and advertise) the momentum rating of bullets?
 
Once again:

- Momentum (when accompanied by appropriate bullet structure) --> Penetration

- Energy (when accompanied by appropriate bullet structure) --> Collateral destruction along the penetration path

- Systems Design: Enough penetration to get into the vitals (and no further); with enough energy to destroy those vitals once there.
 
So let me ask you this then, why do we care about KE? Why don't we discuss (and advertise) the momentum rating of bullets?

People don't understand momentum and it doesn't sound cool, like "kinetic energy" or "muzzle energy".

Plus, kinetic energy does useful things. It breaks things. Kinetic energy is the ability to do work.

KE is what shatters "frangible" bullets and causes hollow points to expand. Plus, a lot of times KE is better. If I'm shooting at varmints I want KE, not momentum. If I'm shooting at deer, I want expansion.

I really don't care about momentum unless I need to penetrate a charging elephants skull with a bonded solid.;)
 
KE is what shatters "frangible" bullets and causes hollow points to expand. Plus, a lot of times KE is better. If I'm shooting at varmints I want KE, not momentum. If I'm shooting at deer, I want expansion.

Fair enough....
 
If I'm shooting at varmints I want KE, not momentum. If I'm shooting at deer,
I want expansion. I really don't care about momentum unless I need to penetrate...

Sure you do [care about momentum].... hence the "retained weight" hoopla as you look at
expanded/peeled-back bullets which would otherwise come to a screeching halt before
reaching vitals (like both lungs, or punching through shoulders).

All the kinetic energy in the world is useless if the bullet blows up 3" inside and doesn't have
the momentum to carry it further.

As I said before, this is a systems problem.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top