Philadelphia Police Fire 48 Rounds Score 3 Hits G-17 Glock Accuracy???

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Well . . . high capacity guns provide the option of using "suppression fire" tactics. This is the rationale in high capacity assault rifles, and 48 rounds in a shoot-out with one person pretty much conforms to the tactic of high volume suppressive fire.

Hard to know what the target was all about. Was there lots of obstructions? Did the police have cover? Did the perp have cover?

Getting anecdotal now . . . I talked with a 20 year sheriff veteran who responded to a domestic violence call and was confronted by the husband coming down the back hall with a gun at the ready. The sheriff turned, crouched, and fired twice, hitting the assailant once in the arm (shot the sight off the handgun and put it though the guy's bicep) and once center of mass killing him.

The sheriff was shot once in the holster belt with a 22 cal. LR -- penetrated the belt, the trouser belt beneath, trousers, shirt-tail, T-shirt, briefs and abdomen, glanced upward off an organ and punctured the lung. (He survived with little disabling injury.)

Now . . . the perp fired his semi-auto 22 seven times in a low light situation. The sheriff doesn't remember hearing the shots or seeing any muzzle flash -- and he was looking for it.

That's what stress under fire does to your senses. Face to face at close range is a LOT different than being in a platoon and shooting at an enemy maybe 50 to 150 yards away -- when you're primed to return fire.

Who knows what went down.
 
Reading some of these post makes me so angry at the arrogance of some people I can't believe it.

GET OF YOUR HIGH HORSES!

You were not there. As others here have said, it is very easy to sit in the comfort of your own home and talk crap about the cops are idiots, they don't train enough, they eat too many donuts....blah, blah, blah....

Until you are in a stituation like that you do not know what you are talking about. I don't care how much training LEO's have they still have one enormous flaw, they are human and not machines. Ever hear of the fight or flight syndrome?

Just because you shoot two, three, five hundred times a month that does not mean crap. You are shooting at a target that is not shooting back. You are not in fear of your life, you are not hearing over the radio that officer(s) are down, etc. We cannot simulate training to the same level as what happens in an actual situation on the street. We can try to come close but that is it.

Now I am not saying training does not help. I think LEOs should have as much training as possible and as realistic as possible. There is a problem with this though, it costs money and none of us want to pay more taxes.

I hope none of you face a similar situation like this in your lives. I think you might be surprised how react.

Some people on TFL have a bone to pick with LEOs and use every situation they can to critcize them. If you think you know all there is to know about being a cop go down to your local department and get a job. I don't have a problem with people criticizing LEOs. There are problem LEOs and they should be dealt with. But in a situation like this I really think you need to understand the dynamics of the situation before you get high and mighty on your soap box.

DDT,
The person that is responsible for the danger to the community is the idiot who led the police on this little journey. This is the problem with our country today idiots such as this guy can do what they want then blame somebody else for the end result.
 
The carjacker put the fork in the road, not the police. Normal due process could have been initiated but HE decided to forfeit that process. The funny thing here is that these guys, if you study all of the FACTS, had the right to blow his head oof but they chose to subdue him. Now, they are under firefor it. This guy committed multiple felonies and ran. He danced and the fiddler had to be paid.

As to the Glock 17, it's still a great weapon and yes the Phillie PD should have more training an I am sure this event will bring the issue to the forefront. Had the PD had the range time, they probably would not have missed and the perp would'nt be able to bring a suit.

If funds are the issue, why not hold community fund raisers to help the Phillie PD get the training? Just don't bag on these guys. They do a thankless job for low pay as it is. And let me tell you, we have come a long way on PD brutality in the last 50 years.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."

[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 15, 2000).]
 
In my duty as city councilman with oversight of our police department, what should a adequate amount of firearm training be consuming in ammo per year and in training time? Yes, I realize that some officers need more and some less, but I'm looking for an overall average per officer for comparison. Also I hope to get some of the officers out on our club range to teach me how to shoot my .45. No doubt I'll learn a few things: best case - that they know there stuff and can teach me; worst case - that I find out they can't shoot or shoot safely.
 
mrat,

How are people supposed to learn if we don't analyze events such as this? Are we to simply say "they're officers and beyond criticism?" Sorry, I don't buy that.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Hardball: The Glock takes practice to shoot well. But, with practice, it's a formidable weapon, and has significant advantages. People not used to the Glock often hate it and don't want to take the time to learn trigger pull, trigger reset, etc. People who take the time and discipline to learn the Glock well often become fanatical about them. Fear the man who shoots the Glock well, however. He's probably a pretty good shot with ANYTHING!

All: I have read somewhere (?Ayoob) that the average hit/miss ratio in cop shootings is somewhere in the 28% range. Doesn't sound very good, but in a shootout the perp is running, jumping, moving, and it's a lot harder than shooting bullseyes at the range. Still, 48 shots/5 hits is pretty poor shooting...

Next time you're at the range, go run around for about 10 minutes, get your heart rate above 150 and break a sweat, then quickly grab your pistol and give a rapid-fire discharge down range. Didn't do that well? Next try it on a moving target!!!
 
Theres nothing wrong with the Glock and it is far easier to shoot under stress than anybodys double/single action. The problem was with the bad guy, he refused to stand still at the 25 yard line and let them shoot at him. Also the key is bullet placement gentlemen.

7th

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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
 
100KB+...and it looks like we might need two threads to cover the topic: one on practical combat accuracy, one of police SOP for elusive or combative suspects (good one for General)

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
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