Philadelphia Police Fire 48 Rounds Score 3 Hits G-17 Glock Accuracy???

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Hey Sigarms, which hospital around Harrisburg is trauma rated? Hershey Med?

Harrisburg isn't, is it? I don't think Polyclinic or Holy Spirit are, either, and God knows Carlisle is more akin to a morgue than a hospital...

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
JTDuncan, in most dept's you get to go to the swat team by brown nosing the brass, not by being the best shooter or tactical operator. After two years on my dept being the best shooter I wasnt even considered for the violent crimes and warrant service unit (closest thing to swat here) because I am not in the "click".
 
It is easy to critisize the actions of others from the comfort of your living room when you are not being shot at. Why don't you people go shoot a live fire simulator and see how well you do. At least when you miss, you or someone else won't be injured or dead because of your actions or dragged into court. Nor do you have to worry where all those extra rounds went, and you can redo the scenarios all you want. Now you might have a little tiny bit of insight as to how well the Philadelphia PD did in a real situation....
 
Rob43, While I can't comment on your particular situation, being the best shooter on the PD only means...you're the best shooter. I've seen great shooters who couldn't make a reasonable decision if their life depended on it. LOTS more to being an instructor or SRT than shooting ability.
 
I'd have to agree with many above comments that it was poor training but in conjunction with stress. That can be a deadly combination. Now the question begs, do we ban the Glocks or the Police Officers? :D

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The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.
 
I agree with those who say that it is about training. I don't care how scary it is, that's no excuse for the kind of inept shooting done in this case. Face it, most police departments don't require the kind of competence with firearms that is necessary in a real gunfight. This kind of ineptitude is common. And, no, that doesn't mean these cops aren't nice guys, brave and loyal Americans, etc. Just that they can't shoot. Also, the caliber is not the problem EXCEPT in that the 9mm can be loaded into hi-cap mags. The FBI did a study which showed that hit ratio declined drastically once PD's went from revolvers to semi-autos. Their conclusion was that the "spray and pray" syndrome took over. Shot placement is everything, and when you only have six shots, you slow down and make them count. Training, training, training. One of my shooting buddies is a 30-year veteran cop who has been in 3 gunfights and won every one of them. He practices shooting 10 hours per week or more. The average for the rest of the cops in his department, he says, is about 10 hours every six months. When I see a cop pull a gun, I hit the deck!
 
9x45, it's O.K. to critisize them even if we
are sitting the comfort of our bathrooms.
Because they carry firearms as the TOOL of profession and absolutely must know how to use it effectively and safely, but we do not
do that. If they need to learn how to shoot under stress, let'em learn that, it's their business to be the best of the best of the best....oppps, just kidding...
 
Like a few others have said, it's easy to criticize because we weren't in the actual situation. How many people have ever been in a real fight, not some grade school fight, but one where the other person was trying to kill you. Fights/confrontations just don't work like they do in Steven Segal movies.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are crack shots and shoot competitively, etc. However, all the training in the world can't fully prepare you or protect you from the real world as sometimes there are odds you can't overcome in environments one can't control; the training hopefully gives you an edge.

Additionally, attending a few defensive shooting classes every year isn't going to make you 100% effective and can actually give you a false sense of security. One needs continual training.

The weekend warrior who attends a 1-2 classes and thinks they can stop any perp with their gun may be in for a rude awakening if in the event they do come into a problem. Some LE have con-ed, some don't, I do think they all should have it and more often but that costs money.

I'm sure there are some people who can shoot 10 rounds into a 1" group at 25 yards or shoot steel plates in some ridiculously fast time. But can they do it after doing 100 pushups and running 10 40 yard dashes to simulate the adrenaline rush and fatigue? And that's not including other factors like fear and/or anger.

I've gone shooting with some cops who could shoot and others who were lacking. I do agree that since they do this for a profession, they should have more training but that's not a guarantee that they'll be more effective; only hopefull so.

Being a cop isn't all about shooting, there's a lot of diplomatic stuff, etc that usually is more important; however, they should be training more with their guns. This varies a lot on the department, state, etc. If an average citizen is training more than LE, that might be a problem since many avid shooters don't carry on a regular basis like LE do.

As far as what happened here, I really don't know so I won't judge yet. LE I've talked to don't think firing 15 rounds out of their guns is excessive in a gun fight otherwise they wouldn't carry spare mags. If I were to unload at someone I'd hope my partner has the same idea.

I'm not going to say, "gee, I hope my partner shoots him so I don't and won't". When you have 3-4+ cops all shooting at the same time, it would be easy to rack up 48 rounds fired but the media doesn't point that out.
 
Schlick: I think that you were referring to my reply? Anyway, do not confuse stress with what happens when you are in the grip of FEAR for your life. Stress is akin to not having the rent when it's due, or having a personality conflict with your boss. The two are world's apart.
Today's training is rooted in target based, static marksmanship development. Most courses of fire are timed to allow ample time for a "qualifying" level of performance by anyone with a modicum of basic marksmanship skill. That's why MOST cops are able to qualify. There is little time, nor money in most budgets for anything above and beyond that. And yes, even if there were, there would be little enthusiasm for it from a lot of the troops. 9x45 has the right idea: Put yourself into(through?) a simulator and see how YOU do.
KOG touched on the other part. When focused on the danger, YOU are "it". No matter the personnel around you, your mind and body look out for number one. That may include emptying the mag, disegarding bystanders near, or behind the target and the presence of back-up officers. All bets are off when it comes to your innate capacity to fight for your survival.
 
Mike,

Yes it is Hershey Med. Harrisburg is not a trauma center but is trying to become one (they were one many many years ago), Polyclinic will be shut down within 5 years (everything moving to Harrisburg). Only other trauma centers in the region are Lancaster General, York Hosp, and Geisinger.

JOHN
 
It's a given that stress is going to reduce your performance. No one knows how they're going to react until it happens to them. But it's still no excuse for trained professionals to perform like that. It's part of the job. At the risk of sounding crass, deal with it. You have to train to be able to perform adequately when the situation arises, do it. It's perfectly legitimate for the public, 'weekend warriors' included, to critique the performance of the police.

This reminds me of the BATF agent testifying at the WACO hearings whining, almost in tears, about how the Davidians guns 'sounded so big and scary' and how the ATF's weapons 'just sounded like popguns compared to them' [paraphrased quotes, go watch the tape]. I'm sorry, but get off it, it's your job. If you're going to freak and spray like that in a firefight, seriously, get another job. You're putting everyone around you in danger and doing damage to the reputation and standing of LEO's across the country. LEO's must be held to a higher standard than the average joe. Just because a citizen 'weekend warrior' might have screwed the pooch, or hit bystanders, or basically failed to perform is no excuse for the cops to perform in that fashion.

To not examine and critique situations like this is to ask for trouble later on. Just for the record, I don't feel it's the individual officers's fault, it's the training/preperation, or lack of it, being given them. If they're supposed to perform better than the average joe, they have to be trained harder than the average joe. Cops sticking condition one Glocks unholstered in their waistbands and playing with kids? Running down the street with their fingers on the triggers? Where was that in the training regimen.

If anything, I'd like to see cops treated with scrutiny but handled as innocent until proven guilty. The media is too quick to paint the on-scene officers as thugs and brutes before all the facts are in. Assume they're in the right, then run the investigation. If it turns out they were negligent or brutal or whatever, then prosecute completely - it will get the incompetent off the force and help to restore public confidence in the police. But give the cops the benefit of the doubt.


- gabe
 
Man the comfort of the living room doesn't wash with me. I've been under serious physical attack before and responded with appropriate force.

Teen age Gangbangers have better shot placement. But hey, when barney gets all hopped up on coffee and donuts you've gotta figure bullets are gonna fly all over.

I think everyone of those cops should be sued for reclessly endangering the public welfare just like we would if we discharged 45 rounds downtown in broad daylight. If you aren't sure of your target or the back drop DON'T TAKE THE SHOT!!!!!. If these jokers can't do any better than that they have no excuse owning or carrying a gun to PROTECT us from these dangerous unarmed men. What happens when a highly skilled armed perp comes into the picture? Do we spray thousands of rounds and prey they succomb to lead poisoning form the dust in the air? It's bad enough they write us tickets but now they are spraying lead everywhere. I say make em go back to revolvers and give em all one round. That should really make the streets safer. -ddt
 
Hearing stories like this really make me mad. "Oh man, the cops shot at me, and hit and kicked me, after all I did was attack a couple of them, but its their fault for hitting and kicking me, all I was doing was resisting arrest, and attacking cops, but its all thier fault". You know whats really sad, this guy will probably win, the cops will get fired, and the city will end up paying this guy for attacking officers of the law, and stealing cop cars. Oh, now I get it, thats why he did it!
 
What I want to know is who are the people with the white clothing in the video? I see the cops with their blue shirts trying to get circle the perp but a majority of the kicking and beating appears to come from an african american man with white shorts and shirt; you can see him "soccer kicking the guy" and at least one other guy in a white shirt. It looks to me like the cops in blue were trying to get in there and break things up or apprehend the guy.
 
Wonder what would have happened if the guy would really have had a gun???????????????
:rolleyes:

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Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
This Bozo got what was coming to him. No, he did'nt really on second thought. If he would have a received a .308 sniper round between the eyes, then he would have gotten his due.

Training smaining! The guy messed with the bull and he got the horn! Leave the Phillie PD alone and let this be a lesson to anyone who would opt to break the law and put other innocent lives in peril.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."

[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited July 14, 2000).]
 
Hell, why even bother with courts and juries and all that nonsense? Let's just let the police dole out judgement and punishment right there on the spot. Justice, 7.62 style. Think of the expediency! And no more lawyers, as an added bonus. Hell, the guys obviously guilty, just fry his ass right there on the street.

And if he turned out not to be guilty, or the punishment didn't "fit the crime" or some other such nonsense, well at least it'll go a long way towards instilling a healthy sense of fear of the Police in the general public. I mean, really, why are we even bothering with all this 'rights of the accused' crap? Trial by our peers? Screw 'em. Just stomp his sorry ass into the asphalt and be done with it. Think of how much we'll save on training costs alone... And for all those underhanded sneaky political pinko scumbags, we can have a 'Secret Police' just for them..so they can get what's coming to them, too.


There's a reason we don't let the Police just run around and crack heads open. It makes no difference if this guy, morally, 'got what was coming to him' or not.

It may make you feel better, but history says it's a bad road to go down.


- gabe

PS: I don't mean to sound preachy, but we can't have it both ways. The right to a jury trial is part of the deal. As someone once said around here "The bill of rights is not a buffet".
 
dbrowne1"

What I am talking about is the observed fact that Glocks are difficult to shoot well under severe stress such as actual combat. As an example, my local counhty shierfs office converted to .40 S7W glocks 4 years ago. I observed a lot of the conversion training. Most officers got good scores in the slow fire bullseye phases of the training, In rapid fire combat stages the average officer tended to shoot @ 18 to 24 inches low at 10 to 15 yards. Subsequent actual shootings showed the same results.
I tried firing the course myself and found . for example, that I shot consistently 18 inches low in draw and fire stages and raoid fire multiple target stages. I repeated these stages with a SIG-Sauer and did not shoot low, Several experienced officers repeated the course with their old side arms and did not have the problem. If this is not due to the ergonomics of the basic Glock design, what does cause it?
Also remember, when you are engaged in actual close quarter combat and your life is at stake the stress level will be much higher than that experienced in any practice course of fire.
If you have been in actual combat with a Glock and had no problems good for you. I'm glad you survived, but Glocks seem to be difficult for the average person to shoot well under stress.
 
Blame it on lack of practice and unfamiliarity with a semiauto pistol.

Many of the Phila police are still using .38spc and .357mag revolvers.

I called 2 Phila police districts and finally the main police administration building today and asked what firearms they were using.

The male officers who answered the phone in two of the districts said that they carried revolvers and didn't know what semiauto pistols the others carried.

A female officer at the administration building told me that they are issued Glocks, .357's and .38's. When I asked if they used Glock model 17's, she said she didn't know because she carries a revolver!

FYI - I live about 100 feet outside NE Philadelphia now, but grew up in Phila.
 
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