percussion revolver chainfires

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bamaranger

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About a year ago I finally acquired my first cap & ball revolver, after a yearn for one since childhood. The 1860 Army seemed a sleek and handsome gun when first viewed on the cover of a child's oversize book at about the tender age of 7-8, and I see it that way today! Mine is a used Pietta 1860 replica and I have enjoyed it immensely.

About my third extended shooting session, experimenting with homemade wads for the charge holes, I had a chain fire. No harm done, and honestly, due to my moderate loads, not all that dramatic. Nonetheless, I began to dig a bit into the phenomenon.

What I have found recently is a pair of video's on YouTube, one by a narrator "Old Ranger" and another by "All Things Blackpowder". Both these gents addressed the question concerning at which end of the cylinder/charge hole a chain fire is most likely to originate. After all, essentially both ends of the chamber are "open" so to speak and potential pathways to a chainfire. Their experiments involved placing a fully charged, capped & greased chamber under the (cocked) hammer, and the two chambers adjacent charged with powder and grease only (for obvious safety reasons). They then left the cones of the powder/grease only chambers uncapped. This left an entirely open pathway for a rearward spark or flash to find the charged chamber. Upon subsequent shot(s), the uncapped cylinders DID NOT chainfire.

I'm not saying that ALL chainfires originate at the cylinder mouth and they aren't either, but their experiments really lend themselves to the belief that MOST may well initiate up front.

Check it out.
 
I've watched both of those videos as well. Interesting stuff. I myself have not had a chain fire (knock on wood). I hope to never have one. There is alot going on at the front of the cylinder during firing. I think it could be slightly out of round chambers. That or the wrong size ball. I never understood why folks want to use a .451 ball when the manufacturer clearly stated use .454.
 
Concur that you want a slightly oversized ball that will leave a shaved ring on the cylinder mouth. That (in theory) should seal the cylinder mouth (if the ball was solid and had no cavities and assuming the chamber is smooth and without gaps).

I'm still of the same opinion as Elmer Keith and the retired Dean at Trinidad (formerly senior instructor) College that loose caps are the cause of chain fire. The test performed above could also be done with old caps to seal the nipple (caps may have to be compressed by hand to keep them on).
 
bamaranger said:
I'm not saying that ALL chainfires originate at the cylinder mouth and they aren't either, but their experiments really lend themselves to the belief that MOST may well initiate up front.
Click to expand...
That has always been the generally accepted wisdom.
 
Concur that you want a slightly oversized ball that will leave a shaved ring on the cylinder mouth. That (in theory) should seal the cylinder mouth (if the ball was solid and had no cavities and assuming the chamber is smooth and without gaps).

I'm still of the same opinion as Elmer Keith and the retired Dean at Trinidad (formerly senior instructor) College that loose caps are the cause of chain fire. The test performed above could also be done with old caps to seal the nipple (caps may have to be compressed by hand to keep them on).
Click to expand...

I wonder if that could be the case Gary, Could hand cast balls be a contributor vs say a swaged ball? It also makes sense that it could come from either end of the cylinder. An improper fitting cap next door could cause it as well. I don't really want to see a missing cap when the next chamber comes up.
 
Over my lifetime I've put over 30,000 rounds out of my various C&Bs. [Don't ask why, but I've kept all the empty cap tins since 1968] I've never had a chainfire. I also use either a wad or grease or both in each chamber. I used to do one round "reloads" in SASS matches by charging all 6 chambers leaving the sixth uncapped. I would fire the first 5 then cock the gun (a Colt style) and cap the 6 & fire. I do suspect that some chainfires where "all of the rest of the chambers fired" might have occurred in brass framed guns whos recoil shield had been battered by heavy loads allowing excessive rearward motion of the cylinder to where the caps strike the recoil shield and fire. Other than than that I'm convinced that ill fitting (or ill cast balls), or chambers with a slight overhang at the mouth from machining that actually shave the lead ring but then have a space along an edge of the ball that can let flame get to the powder. Chamfering the cylinder mouth slightly eliminates the machining defect so the ball gets swaged into the chamber for a tight fit.
 
the uncapped cylinders DID NOT chainfire.
Click to expand...
Accepted wisdom (like "settled science") or not, it is my fixed opinion that *
it is the the loose cap whose side(s) are open to flame reflection & ignition
that sets off an adjacent cylinder.

(which is the reason that an uncapped cylinder fails to chainfire)




* Barring the presence of grossly undersized balls/no sealing grease or wad while loading
 
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Any loose caps I've had fell off under recoil. A loose cap that stays on is still covering the flash hole and flame would have to make 3 turns of 90 degrees to get down the flash channel. I just don't see that happenning if the nipple is covered.
 
I bought my first cap & ball revolver in 1967 ... was instantly hooked on shooting them .

Have always used tight fitting balls , seat the balls down on the powder , no wads , and covered the exposed ball with grease , usually Crisco / Beeswax ...

I have never had a chain fire in all these years of shooting cap & ball revolvers .

I don't do You Tube ...but I do 50 years of shooting ...
Grease over a tight fitting ball and carry on !
Gary
 
caps

I would agree that flash at the rear of the cylinder could set off an ill fitting cap. Whether or not said flash originates from the cylinder mouth or from the cap under the hammer, I dunno. The whole issue would be a good study for the high speed slo-mo camera people. The distance from the rear of the cone to the powder charge in the cylinder is certainly greater than to where a loose cap would be.
One comment in the videos is that cast balls seated with the sprue shaving may allow a small gap when seated, even if shaving. Said gap, if not greased would be trouble. So too any ball cast with defects. I have also seen video of cylinders where the mouth is one diameter, but the diameter of the chamber itself was GREATER. The ball would shave, but would be relatively loose in the cylinder, free to slide about in recoil.

Agree that lube solves most issues up front.
YouTube has been a good source o f learning how to for me on a lot of stuff.
 
You don't use wads in a cap and ball revolver. The ball is a little over size and a ring of lead is sheared off when loading making it a perfect fit.
 
Some people (not me) use grease-impregnated 1/8" felt wads over the ball.
(Me ? Crisco/Beeswax from my thoroughly deplorable upbringing. )

That said, "some" people still report chainfires even though ball totally seals/shaves and grease or wad on top.
Ain't no way that even remotely can happen save through the cap end.
:cool:
 
TheC&B revolvers were designed to function with a cap, powder, and round ball or conical. I would expect that the Colt machinists were aware that a man's life depended on the dimensions of their pistols being up to spec. However, an Italian machinist is likely aware that his guns are for recreational use and if there is a little slop, then so what? Nobody is gonna die over it. The QC of the Colt factory had to be several levels above the Italian plants of today so a wad or lube over the ball is a nice preventative to overcome defects in today's manufacturing. Jack Ryan your opinion is quite valid if the gun is made perfectly. I've owned over 35 different C&Bs and believe me, thay are not perfect.
 
no way

The flash from a discharging cylinder will erode/degrade the amount of lube on nearby cylinders. Add thin lube due to a weak temperature sensitive mix (say Crisco only) and there might not be a whole lot of lube left by the time a undischarged cylinder is subjected to a shot or three. Combine that with a wonky ball, perhaps one the that partially shaved, and I would not rule out a chainfire....stuff happens and there are few absolutes.

Similarly, there are shooters who use overpowder wads in a percussion revolver in a step towards eliminating the use of messy over ball lubes. It is indeed done, by others besides myself. My single use was an experiment to eliminate the use of sloppy lube, crisco
 
Friend of mine shoots black powder competitively. I have a few BP pistols and muzzle loaders (Mostly gifts), and asked him to educate me. Took a few pistols out and watched him. He greased the front of every loaded cylinder.
 
back in the day

I have no idea how good the machinists /machinery was in the mid 1800's compared to what is done by the shops in Italy modern day. I suspect part of the issue with the reliability of C&B revolvers is modern caps versus the caps of the era.
 
CNC tooling wear

All our parts are being cut on CNC mills and lathes. It is quite normal for the tools to wear, and for manufacturer's to "stretch" the life of said tooling.
One would think that worn tooling would produce lesser dimensions, that is not the case.
 
I was tempted to take CNC, but my workload was heavy enough. Last semester I carried 21 units/credits/hours. I wish they'd get a four axis mill to replace their three axis.

I emailed the PR person at the College and asked about high speed with a cc'd to an administrator about getting a grant (at least identify who does grant writing there).
 
bamaranger,
I think you are onto something by mentioning the caps of today may not resemble the caps of yesteryear. I wonder if the old ones were more thin foil types that pretty well blew apart or were thin enough that cap jams were not as much of an issue as today. I have some old Italian caps from the late 1960s/early 70s that are very heavy brass and corrosive. It would be nice to know if the original Colts had more space under the hammer curvature to let a spent cap lay there and not cause misfires. Cap jams are a subject for another thread.
 
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