Pepper Spray all aspects

Anything rather then having to shoot the puppy. I LOVE animals more then most people.
I'd much rather have him think he was going to get sprayed, and, maybe, then getting some idea of what he was carrying, prior to pulling a gun. I KNOW I got really mad when the guy brought a Walther PPK/S to what I thought was going to be a really fun, 3 on 1 fight in a bathroom...:mad:
 
I got some in my eye and it felt like needles jabbing me.

Remember that most perps are out to get something from you. That is, they have a specific goal such as getting your wallet or raping you or whatever. The people the cops end up spraying are usually just being violent a-holes and swinging at anyone. A cop is trying to apprehend someone, whereas you are simply trying to leave.

From what I've seen on youtube, pepper spray is effective at stopping people from setting and achieving discrete goals like firing a weapon or taking a purse or whatever. It's not so effective at preventing people from flailing around and causing havoc to those people and things nearby.

So if you're afraid of being robbed or carjacked, it might be good (provided the perp doesn't have a weapon). If you're afraid of being punched and kicked in an elevator, not so good.
 
I don't consider it an option for my wife. She has allerigies that can practically lock up her lungs on a bad day and I would be afraid that any blowback from pepper spray would incapacitate her worse than her attacker. Also it would not be practical for one of her possible scenarios; someone hiding inside her car in the dark when she gets off work.

She works someplace where it's not an option to carry, so with any kind of spray out, I figure we're down to stun gun or taser. There's also the possibility of an ASP or something else, I guess. I haven't picked up either for her yet because with my current work schedule I usually drop her off and pick her up myself since we start at the same time and I work close by. My work situation will likely change soon, so we need to make a decision on what's best for her to carry.
 
I have used CapStun brand on an arrest scuffle and on dogs, and it was effective. Notably, the bad guy didn't stop and lay down, but it blinded him and interfered with his breathing enough we got control of him. (2 on 1 in our favor and he was winning - ah, youth). I have also been issued Punch-II and have personally purchased Guardian brand, all of which are quality products. Somewhere on the net I found a comparison of all the sprays and was surprised to see they really aren't all created equal. Do your research and buy quality. Incidentally, if you're going to leave spray in a car, I have found only one unit specially formulated not to burst - an auto unit made by Guardian.

The great advantage of pepper spray is that it's cheap and doesn't cause any damage. This means someone like your wife or girlfriend is much more likely not to hesitate, and will use it before it's too late. All tough-guy talk aside, most people have a tough time shooting a person and WILL hesitate, often because a lot of assault scenarios are not real clear cut until you're rolling around on the ground or have a knife pressed against your belly. A brandished gun is not necessarily going to stop things, either. The spray is intimidating to a lot of bad guys, can be used before things rise to the level of a justified shooting, and if they get it away from you and use it against you, it won't kill you like your gun or knife.

Incidentally, that Kimber Guardian gel-thing doesn't look good to me. The police unit has sights and is designed to deploy up to 21 feet (hopefully with other officers covering.) The civilian unit has no sights and takes away one of the pepper spray's advantages, a continuous stream or spray so you can hit your target. Check out the demo video on Kimber's website: their own demonstrator almost misses the head target with his first shot.
 
The adwantage: Use without re-thinking

OC, Tasers and Guarian Angles have one big advantage: You don't have to think twice. If you misjudged the situation, you apologize, give the - good - buy money or buy him a drink and that can be it. Try that with a handgun :eek: .

So, I sometimes carry OC (with my 9x19mm) eg when running in the woods. If a dog comes to close, I don't need to think to long, if it's to close, I spray it. No blast, no casing lying somewhere, no dead dog, no mad owner.
And if the dog tries to kill me, I can still shoot it.

Same applies to unclear situations. If I feel that pulling the gun might be to much and I could regret it - I can use OC as a first defense. Switching to the gun wouldn't take long. However, I don't advocate using OC in a clear lethal threat situation. If the leathal threat is clear, the answer is clear: The fastest and most reliable way awailiable to stop the threat, and in my case that mostly is a 9x19mm Glock or a .223 rifle.

Have a nice weekend,
PB
 
Maybe some people are immune to its charms, but when I got sprayed at the academy it felt like someone tossed a bucket of lit gasoline in my face. The effects lasted for hours.

JP
 
There is also a LE version that is effective out to 20 feet and delivers the OC at 270 mph.
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That is the JPX if I am not mistaken and it is sold OTC in Illinois ( Do not know the laws in other states )

I found that about 15 feet was a more realistic range estimate for it.

NukemJim
 
In my experience OC has worked every time, stats say it won't but I am willing to bet on the 99% effective. CS or tear gas I would take ten times before getting hit with OC. Hate the stuff, have no desire to get hit with OC again.
 
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There is only ONE purpose for pepper spray in the civillian sector and that is; to subdue your attacker long enough for you to escape. Once, my Weimaraner jumped the fence and attacked our mailman. He nailed her right in the face with pepper spray and all it did was tick-her-off even worse! She ran right through it. I have also heard stories of people jacked-up on amphetamines not being phased by pepper spray. Myself, I would never depend on it 100% in a self-defense situation. A taser or stun-gun would be my first choice for non-lethal defense.
 
Spray on an animal is NOT the cureall, it might discourage an animals attack, or delay it, just be ready to use another form of defense. I have sprayed a pitbull that just sneezed it off in a matter of seconds. And depending on what type of coat the animal has, the spray might not even be useful.

I still laugh my butt off when my roommate tells the story of his exwifes dog that I sprayed, after I left, he called the dog in (dog was loose, and found its way back to what it felt was home), petted it for a few minutes, and then used the restroom. Took a few minutes for the residue to take effect, and then it took several hours and multiple showers for his junk to go back to normal temps!

When we got 'certified' at the bar to use spray, it was ingrained into us students that it will only buy you a little bit of time to control the person(s) and subdue them. We were sprayed and were able to wash it off within a minute, those we did spray in the course of our work however, would wind up in handcuffs and unable to wash for quite some time.

Some have suggested the stream versus the fog output, keep in mind the stream requires more accuracy in the one deploying it, the fog output has an 'area affect', meaning you dont have to exactly get it right in their face.
 
Hmmmm.... I'm confused. Why would a private citizen ever choose a chemical spray over a 9mm or 45 ACP?

If my wife were being attacked and feared imminent death, serious bodily injury, or sexual assault, I would want her to use deadly force.

If I were being attacked and feared imminent death or serious bodily injury I would choose deadly force.

If I were being attacked by a 50-100 pound, cute fuzzy ball of teeth, jaws, muscle, and claws, I would choose deadly force (too bad we can't carry a 12 ga.).

If I were being accosted, harrassed, coerced, or a victim of simple assault, I would use traditional methods of self defense like either overpowering the aggressor or running away. If I were attacked by a small dog I would kick it, of course if it latched its little teeth onto my leg (depending on it's size) I might then have to shoot it.

Seems like if I used a chemical spray, that would be considered escalating the altercation, and at the very least I could expect to be sprayed back; or sued; or attacked with greater vigor creating a more dangerous situation.

I don't see it. I thought I had this CCW thing figured out.

I always see folks walking around with sticks. I wish I could tell them...if you feel like you need a self defense weapon (and I can understand that), you should get a much better one... in a larger caliber... especially since you live in a state that will issue a CCW permit. You should sign up, get on board, support our 2nd amendment rights and carry an effective self defense weapon.

I thought sprays and tazers (sp?) were to assist LE in subduing non-leathal suspects resisting arrest...
 
I don't consider it an option for my wife. She has allerigies that can practically lock up her lungs on a bad day and I would be afraid that any blowback from pepper spray would incapacitate her worse than her attacker. Also it would not be practical for one of her possible scenarios; someone hiding inside her car in the dark when she gets off work.
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Velobard:


Get her a taser. They have them available in pink now for women. The latest color for ladies is now an attractive leopard skin:


taser-c2lep.jpg



My niece is now a widow living on her own, with two boys. She was not at all comfortable with firearms. And it is virtually impossible to get a CCW permit in California anyway. However, she can legally take her Taser to virtually anywhere in California, except to a school or government building.

I got her the pink model. Here is a photo of the package before I wrapped it up to be her present last Christmas:


taser_pink_online.jpg



Just buy her a few extra cartridges so she can fire it a few times to familiarize herself with it. A great training DVD ships with the Taser. Be sure to get her the model with the laser sight. It only costs $50 more, so it is well worth it. The laser makes aiming the weapon far, far more accurate and easy to do.

I never go anywhere ( except to the Post Office ) without my Taser.


sW_taser_online.jpg


.
 
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The great advantage of pepper spray is that it's cheap and doesn't cause any damage. This means someone like your wife or girlfriend is much more likely not to hesitate, and will use it before it's too late. All tough-guy talk aside, most people have a tough time shooting a person and WILL hesitate, often because a lot of assault scenarios are not real clear cut until you're rolling around on the ground or have a knife pressed against your belly. A brandished gun is not necessarily going to stop things, either.
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This is the thing that scares me the most about self defense...Is that I will hesitate and it will cost me my life. I am pretty sure that If faced with a threat of any kind (leathal or not)... I will hesitate. It is my nature (for better or worse). The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone. I just can't make the mental leap that the person who approaches and asks for money means to rob and kill me. I just think they want some change. But if I survive my initial hesitation, and I have to make a deliberate decision to draw/use a weapon while I am on my a** or in any other compromised position I would rather come up smoking than spraying. :mad: I just can't see the need for spray. :confused:
 
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I think Mas Ayoob was credited with the quote "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." The pepper spray is just another tool for the toolbox. Sometimes you run into situations which just aren't clear cut. I have experienced, as have a number of LEO's I have worked with from various agencies, bad guys who would look at a drawn weapon and tell you "go ahead, shoot me," knowing full well that we wouldn't shoot an unarmed individual. Sure, they always tell us in legal training that you can shoot in such a situation if you can articulate reasonable fear, like the bad guy is going to try a weapon snatch, but I have yet to see a LEO pull the trigger like that. What happens is you're stuck: if you shoot, you could end up unemployed and/or in jail. Pepper spray is just what you want (Tazers would be great, too.). Otherwise, you holster up and the fight is on.
 
TripIII,

Pepper spray basically just gives you another option for when lethal force is not appropriate, but some level of force is.

In slowly-developing situations, it can be used considerably sooner than a firearm can.

In ambiguous situations, it may allow the defender to act decisively sooner than he or she otherwise would.

For those who have moral or ethical doubts about using lethal force, pepper spray is one of the few non-lethal defensive options which allows the defender to protect him- or herself from a distance, to stay out of arm's reach from the attacker but still deter the criminal and escape.

Finally: Why would you want to kill someone if you could survive the encounter unscathed without killing them?

pax
 
different OC sprays

What is the difference between mace 10% OC and the mace canine spray. They both appear to be the same size, but the canine spray doesn't list the % OC on their web site.

I'm shocked at the number of posts about using your gun is the first and last and only choice. The lone purpose is to defuse the situation/confrontation. Words work great, such as I'm sorry, my mistake, etc. Next is to keep moving around. Don't plant your feet and let the other party get a bead on you. then show OC spray, then threaten to use OC, then use OC, then draw and show gun, then do what is necessary. Not always in that order, not always any or all of these choices.

A hundred different situations create many choices of escalation and deescalation. Like someone else posted it is a tool that can be used when appropriate and time/circumstances allow. If you squirt the dog 12 feet from you, He may not get to 10 feet from you. If he does you escalate your response. If he is charging a hundred miles an hour, at 12 feet you need a stiffer response than OC. The point is the more options we have the less we will need lethal force. The force of last resort.

Responding to some other posts as well -What the heck is wrong with showing your gun if it keeps you from having to actually shoot someone. I would rather be explaining to the law why i had to scare someone off rather than explaining why I felt legally correct to discharge lethal force. It is all about escalation of response as necessary. We all have a moral, if not legal duty to mitigate the force necessary. OC spray next to my extra magazine gives me an opportunity to do, situation permitting. I may be a samurai, but I do not have to bloody my sword every time I need to draw it.:cool:
 
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