People who hate and fear firearms . . .

[Brian Pfleuger]

I can listen to almost any viewpoint and not become angry at the person for having it (short of racism and other obviously immoral stances), but I find that many with a stance opposite of mine do not have this ability.

Not only do most people not have this ability, most have been taught implicitly to turn every debate into racism, hate or bigotry of some kind or another. There is not a single issue of modern political debate that is not permeated with such language. Immigration, you hate foreigners. Abortion, you don't care about woman. Marriage, you hate gay people. Guns, you don't care about children. Health care, you hate old or poor people. Voting, you hate foreigners or poor people or you're racist. Economic policy, you hate poor people. Etc, etc, ad nauseam.

When it's one voice, you can win. When it's the entire chorus, you can't get a word in edge-wise. You become hate because that's what the one loud voice says you are.

When that's coupled inextricably with total disagreement about what constitutes the "cognitive, rational track that is deliberate" as mentioned by Glenn, what you have is chaos. For example, consider Bill Nye's "Undeniable: Evolution and the Science of Creation" vs Dr Jason Lisle's Taking Back Astronomy.

I could ask, which of those thought processes constitutes a "cognitive, rational track"? I'll bet the answer depends on whose side your on. I'll also bet that, depending on which side you're on, one of them hates God and wants to plunge us into immorality or the other hates science and wants to poison our children with superstition.

 

[Pahoo]

Whose "Common Sense"

One of our biggest barriers right now is the couplet, "Common Sense Gun Laws." All it usually means is that, "if you don't agree with me, you're wrong."

There are so many irrational terms and thoughts one has to question being asked you have to question their "common sense and intelligence. Do you know anyone that has common sense. Here are a few more.

1) All firearms are meant to kill.
2) Key terms that lay the blame on the firearm, bullets when we never
blame the car when someone if runs over a persom

Still remember and news's report that a man committed suicide with a Semiautomatic 9-mm hand gun. I'm sure he had options but not a second/shot, after the shot.


BE SAFE!!!!

 

[DaleA]

most have been taught implicitly to turn every debate into racism, hate or bigotry of some kind or another.

I seem to see this a lot.

It's unfortunate and disheartening. I need something to make me believe there are rational folk out there with actual, REAL, "common sense" in the traditional and REAL meaning of the phrase.

 

[GlenF]

This thread is the best I have read on any forum or book in a long time.

Insightful, intelligent, and thought provoking.

Thank you.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....there are rational folk out there with actual, REAL, "common sense" in the traditional and REAL meaning of the phrase.

No! We need to ditch this "common sense" nonsense.

What is "actual, REAL common sense" in contrast to someone else's common sense? What is the "traditional meaning of common sense" in contrast to any other meaning.

As far as I can tell folks use "common sense" as a substitute for actual knowledge. An appeal to "common sense" is basically saying, "I don't know anything and I have no evidence, but this sounds good."

...Not only do most people not have this ability, most have been taught implicitly to turn every debate into racism, hate or bigotry of some kind or another. There is not a single issue of modern political debate that is not permeated with such language. Immigration, you hate foreigners. Abortion, you don't care about woman. Marriage, you hate gay people. Guns, you don't care about children. Health care, you hate old or poor people. Voting, you hate foreigners or poor people or you're racist. Economic policy, you hate poor people. Etc, etc, ad nauseam....

The clinically psychologist and professor of psychology, Jordan Peterson, has been attributing much of the current toxicity in political and social discussion to the influence of postmodernism, especially in the humanities.

For those who haven't yet made the acquaintance of this view if the world, this article might be a useful introduction:

Postmodernism, also spelled post-modernism, in Western philosophy, a late 20th-century movement characterized by broad skepticism, subjectivism, or relativism; a general suspicion of reason; and an acute sensitivity to the role of ideology in asserting and maintaining political and economic power.....

 

[zukiphile]

....there are rational folk out there with actual, REAL, "common sense" in the traditional and REAL meaning of the phrase.

No! We need to ditch this "common sense" nonsense.

What is "actual, REAL common sense" in contrast to someone else's common sense? What is the "traditional meaning of common sense" in contrast to any other meaning.

We often use it to mean something like "ordinary horse-sense", but its origin highlights its danger -- it is the sense of the community. Depending on time and place the sense of your community might be that only witches float, Corvairs are dangerous at any speed, that notwithstanding 1st Am. prohibitions, the state can properly prohibit speech according to viewpoint, or that no one needs a semi-automatic rifle.

Peterson has some outstanding insights about the origins of the current intolerance and incivility; he had the misfortune of experiencing quite a bit of it.

 

[Timeless]

Growing up in a household without guns (even though my dad was an MP), I can confirm until you learn about them and actually get real world experience with them gun are scary.

Now after several years of ownership and CC, I laugh at how afraid of guns I used to be.

It also really puts into perspective how outrageous TV and Movies are with regards to guns.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

The clinically psychologist and professor of psychology, Jordan Peterson, has been attributing much of the current toxicity in political and social discussion to the influence of postmodernism,...

I would concur with that assessment, particularly with regards to the rejection of objective truth and logic.

That assumption makes any proper discussion of issues tedious, at best. Before any issue can be discussed, definitions must be agreed upon. Since post-modernism rejects truth and logic, even the most basic words, concepts and presumptions require definition. We can't even be sure exactly what they mean by "gun" or "control", say nothing of relatively esoteric concepts like "common sense". Pretty hard to have a discussion when world-views are diametrically opposed and there is no agreed upon framework for even establishing basic assumptions.

We need to ditch this "common sense" nonsense.

Yes, sadly. This is another phrase that's been hijacked by both sides and turned into something it never meant. Instead of meaning "common", possessed by all, and "sense", recognition or awareness... meaning a recognition of something generally possessed by all... it has become more like "that which is taken for granted by those with whom I share a world-view".

What should mean something like "if you fall off a cliff; you will probably die" has become "everyone knows there should be less guns", or "everyone knows guns don't kill, people do".

 

[HiBC]

I'll add a few bits to the soup.

A couple of decades ago I recognized a pattern of behavior among a certain demographic. Please,this is NOT a comment on young women.But apparently a popular magazine read by these young women suggested they would be empowered to drive guns out of our society or perhaps keep guns away from themselves by going completely bat crazy,making a loud scene,etc if there was anything firearms.
Part of the message was "All the cool women will reject all men who own guns"

Once again,I'm NOT talking about women. Its the identity politics agendas thing. There is a box and a label to put on every face,implying a politic.

There are echo chambers and peer approval,with associated political risks and rewards.Who gets work in Hollywood?

And who will be more likely to succeed working in the public school system?

The schools to educate teachers used to be called "Normal schools"

Who is teaching your child what normal is....particularly when they are among their peers?

What happens (supposedly) if you present thoughts that challenge our younger folks line of thinking? They get triggered and snowflake out.(I know,that a box,label,stereotype thing.I never got play-dough in college_


Then lets look seriously at Alynski's rules for radicals.Read them,know them,and recognize when you are experiencing them. Like if you are being separated,isolated,and ridiculed.

Among other things,thereis a long term soft Marxist Revolution going on.

I don't thinkisolation to our own echo chamber is helpful.

I've never found any "In My Face" political movements to win me over. I defy.

Talk politics,religion,guns,etc in public? SURE!!. But not with family over Thanksgiving.

With an acquaintance or stranger in a water hole?

Establish the rules up front. We are two different individuals with different points of view. Neither of us needs to win or lose. We can share points of view.
We agree if it starts to get intense,we are done.

Then,for Pete's sake LISTEN.Really here the other point of view.Don't focus on your rebuttal,focus on HEARING. Then,without spin,play it back tothem just so they know you had the respect to HEAR them. You don't have to agree,just hear.

Hopefully,they will truly listen,and hear you. No one has to change.

Begin with a foundation of some understanding and respect.

Be a sane,rational person who is not scary.

It just might be that you can take an anti-gunner shooting.

IMO,radical groups demonstrating and protesting turn off all but the participants,the echo chamber.

Its over music,or beer,or food,or folks taking the effort to help each other out that I have learned to trust and accept folks who are different than I am.

That can work two ways.

I can listen to a friend rant about Conservatives.. I ask them "How many Conservatives do you know and talk to?

"Well,none!! I hate them!!"

Ahh. So what do you base your hate on?

They are all racist,sexist,myogynist,homophobic...." yada yada.

Where did you learn that? Well,it was told to them by their echo chamber.

"So,"Im curious,do I seem to be a racist,sexist....yada yada..?)

No,you are a good Dude"

Ah. So in your actual experience,the only Conservative you know is a Good Dude?" Hmmm. Slowly,cracks can form in illusions. A .22 and some cans can form more cracks. Pickup the cans.Let it be fun.

I gotta go,thanks!! Great conversation,I enjoyed it!They sure serve good chicken wings,we agree on that. See yo next Monday,maybe.

 

[buck460XVR]

Human nature to fear/hate something you are not familiar with. It's one of those things that helped us survive all these years. But folks fear/hate guns for other reasons too, not just because they know nuttin' about them or don't own any. In many instances it's the other way around......the reason they don't know nuttin, or own any is cause they fear/hate 'em.

I have a good friend I grew up with. We hunted and fished together for years until he went to 'Nam. Came back and hasn't hunted or owned a gun since. Doesn't mind other folks havin' em. he just hates them for what he saw them do to his buddies. Have another friend I went to High School with. His daughter committed suicide with one of his favorite trap guns. He doesn't shoot trap anymore, much less own a gun. Used to hunt deer with a friend's family back in the 70s. I was not there that day, but one of the uncles was shot and killed by accident during a drive. None of them hunts or owns a gun anymore, even tho the shot came from someone not in the party. Lots of reasons to hate/fear guns, don't have to be nuts, ignorant, stupid or have autism. I don't have an issue with that. The issue I have is when they insist I should fear/hate them too.

 

[Nathan]

However, my mindset on topics, from my teenage years, has been 'Prove to me I am wrong, and I will change my mind'. Even after I had become a gunowner, I still held the anti beliefs. And once I did my own research with the CDC data, I quickly saw that I was wrong.

Spacemanspiff,
You have great ability with this mindset. We should all strive to have opinions based upon facts and sound logic. We should open ourselves up to challenge and be able to change. This was once the foundation of intellectual thought.

Now I fear we are no longer being pushed in this direction by parents and teachers. Everything is very single minded now. I even see it in gun forums.

 

[spacemanspiff]

15, 20 years ago, you might have been able to change a persons mind with the facts. I don't think there are enough open minds anymore to make any kind of difference.

For example, I was perusing an issue of TIME magazine the other day, wasn't a current copy, it was from March I believe. In it, there was snippets of topics, one being about the push to arm teachers in schools. Someone from the NAACP was saying that arming teachers would lead to more black students being shot, because according to the spokesperson, there is already a disproportionate amount of black students that get disciplined by teachers for their behavior in class.

Let that sink in for a few minutes. And then ponder what kind of discipline is even being handed out in public schools anymore? Detentions? Suspensions? Its not even feasible to make that jump from kids being given detention by teachers to kids being shot by teachers.

 

[5whiskey]

Not only do most people not have this ability, most have been taught implicitly to turn every debate into racism, hate or bigotry of some kind or another. There is not a single issue of modern political debate that is not permeated with such language. Immigration, you hate foreigners. Abortion, you don't care about woman. Marriage, you hate gay people. Guns, you don't care about children. Health care, you hate old or poor people. Voting, you hate foreigners or poor people or you're racist. Economic policy, you hate poor people. Etc, etc, ad nauseam

Yes. I was referring to real, obvious racism. Like speaking with a person that uses commonly acknowledged racial slurs or obviously talks down on a particular race. Fortunately I've found this is growing to be much less common.

You are right though. Paint a policy as a racist policy and anyone who supports said policy is racist. An example: voter ID. If you support voter ID in North Carolina now, there is a large and vocal minority who insists that you are racist. Nevermind ID cards are free, and nearly 2/3rds of the states now have a voter ID law. You're racist because you feel that someone should be vetted for residency, citizenship, and identity before voting.

Hey we should flip that argument on the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Why should we have to present an ID purchase a firearm and exercise one constitutional right if it has been found to be "racist" when exercising the constitutional right to vote?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We are wandering a bit. Most of the social issues discussed outside of guns can lead us down paths we don't do as they cause acrimonious interchanges.

There is some rationality behind wanting to control gun access. It is the pro-gun folks job to explain why legal access is a benefit to society as compared to the harm.

This is true for the other social issues that have mixed pros and cons - but we don't want to go there on the other social hot button issues of race, sexuality and abortion as they lead to rude fights.

Is using 'hate' is too strong a word if you want to suggest true psychiatric pathology is my take away. If you mean strong and passionate disagreement with the issue, the usage is OK.

 

[SmokeyLonesome]

I stopped arguing with gun a phobes a long time ago. Let 'em die on the vine.

 

[rc]

A common story...

A lot of the people marching around blaming the police or guns or institutional racism for their loved ones demise are often ignoring the lifestyle the person led and how they contributed to that lifestyle in their own family. For example, little Johnny's parents never married, they've had multiple partners and they do drugs regularly. Little Johnny turns out to be a A#1 loser who decides one night to get drunk and go out in public. Little Johnny having grown up without respect for authority gets into a verbal argument at a bar and strikes the bartender before leaving. Cops are called and the police confront little Johnny on the street, draw their weapons and command him to get on the ground. Little Johnny says some nasty things to the cops, refuses to comply and acting erratically gets shot by responding officers. Now parents come out of the woodwork saying how little Johnny was so sweet and loving and must have been murdered by the cops. Parents each get a lawyer and sue the department for wrongful death ignoring completely how they contributed to their little baby's death 28 years in the making. Most people who are opposed to gun ownership live in cities, never had the opportunity to shoot a gun and only see guns as a tool for criminals in their town. Everybody is self centered in the way they judge the world around them. Only until they are in a situation where they need a weapon such as when chipmunks are tearing up their lovely cottage do they even see a need to have a gun and many will simply call an exterminator to take care of their problem. Until you can take an ignorant person shooting, you can't change their perspective. rc