People who hate and fear firearms . . .

Kenny, if you haven't already done so, read Michael Chrichton's State of Fear. Not one of his best novels having to do with "global warming". However, about a third of the way into the book there is a several page dissertation by one of the characters on how the government uses fear to control the population and exactly how they do it and who the cooperating entities are. It's quite eye opening.
Good example but not from the book. You know the, "You're more likely to be killed by you own gun than by the bad guy." line of BS. State of fear. You're now afraid to even try and protect yourself and hope praying will save your hide because Sarah Brady said so. :rolleyes:
Paul B.
 
I can no longer remember the author who said it (and whether it was their personal opinion or one of their characters), but I do remember the idea, and the supporting argument, which was essentially that..

Eventually, the Internet will be the death of individual thought.

(and this was at least a decade ago, maybe more...)

The supporting argument was, uniquely enough, biology! Specifically, evolution. The comparison was made that individual thought and beliefs are like genetic mutations, The point went something like this...

Random mutations happen all the time. But in a large population, all "connected" and interbreeding, unless the mutation offers a radical improvement in individual survival, it is extremely rare that the mutation will survive, and become a dominant trait. It will be diluted, and overwhelmed by the DNA of the "normal" mass of the population within a few generations, and will, either disappear entirely or at best, become a regressive gene that only appears rarely in individuals, and is even more rarely dominant in them.

But, if the breeding population is isolated from the bulk of the species, by a remote location (like an island) DIVERGENCE will occur, and can, over time, survive and even become dominant, resulting in entirely different plants and animals than the rest of the world. Australia is one given example.

The parallel with individual thoughts/beliefs is pretty clear, to me, at least. And I believe one can clearly see the effect of group think/herd mentality on social media today. Since we are all connected, ideas that diverge from the accepted norms are swamped (or sometimes stomped) out of existence by the sheer mass of the entire rest of the world.

A single, or a small number of individuals have a thought, post it, and within minutes millions of other people are agreeing with them, and adopting the cause as their own. Dissenters are most frequently overwhelmed into irrelevance. Sometimes they are attacked and destroyed.

From nature to social and political thought, this has always been going on, but the internet and our modern communications networks, enhance, and accelerate the process. And, they also have a huge effect on solidifying the accepted "norms" power and influence. It is very much a case of "mob rule".

And the mob leaders don't want anyone but their hired employees (police, private security, & the military) to have guns. Guns in the hands of people they don't "own" are a potential, and sometimes an actual threat to their aims and desires to rule the rest of us.

Think about the creation of the United States. And think about why it happened here, and almost nowhere else in the world. One of the big factors that both allowed it to begin, and aided in its eventual success was our isolation from our hereditary rulers in England.

When the King's orders, and the soldiers to enforce them are only a day or three days away from dissenters, rebellion is most difficult, and easiest to overwhelm. When it takes weeks, or a couple months by ship to reach those in rebellion, the new ideas have time to spread and take hold, making them much more difficult for the old order to stamp out.

We have now a couple generations who have been trained their entire lives to hate and fear guns. Their political masters tell them to do so, their social peers demand they do so, the incredible BS about guns on their video screens teaches them, 24/7 these days.

Telling these people about reality is not a terribly effective teacher. But reality rudely biting them in the ass usually is. The old joke about "the most staunch law and order supporter is a liberal who has been mugged" is not entirely untrue...

When the hate and fear guns people feel physically threatened, where to they turn? to someone with a gun! IF their servants (police etc.) with guns don't make them feel secure, they want a gun of their own!!! Double standard? oh yeah...
 
Honestly, the best sway you can have with anti’s or undecideds is civil conversation that is clear that you are an active gun owner with clear thoughts about what guns mean to you.

Then, after some friendly patient conversation, you will likely agree to disagree....but they will be left with a reappearing thought that somebody they trust is an avid gun owner that they care about and trust. This will eat at their intellectual mind until they fold internally to the “all guns are bad” belief.

The best argument is to ask them who supports a complete and total gun ban. The reason is that nobody supports a total gun ban. People support permission based gun ownership. They want to give permission to their friends and protectors while keeping guns from outsiders.
 
Do some people hate/fear guns so much that "they wouldn't use a gun to save their own lives?"

Heck, even the Dali Lama said it would be okay to shoot back with a gun.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dalai-gun/

But, while I suspect 99% of folk would defend themselves there's this person, San Felice who was at the office newspaper office in Annapolis when it was shot up.

my dad, a retired homicide detective, joked about how I should have had a concealed carry weapon.

In the above article she replies how it wouldn't have done her any good.

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/col...reflections-survivor-capital-gazette-shooting

And there I was sitting under a desk texting my parents, telling them that I love them.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...RED--your-prayers_us_5b358ed0e4b0f3c2219f72fd

So she's not frozen in fear by the shooting, but she'd rather be texting on her phone than shooting back with a gun. Is this reasonable???
 
I don't care for generalizations, but here is some food for thought (and a generalization.) Why is it the most vociferous about gun control/confiscation some other subjects like: abortion, large government, social issues, fear of police. One of my favorite quotes by Milton Friedman, "Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own. So if you want efficiency and effectiveness, if you want knowledge to be properly utilized, you have to do it through the means of private property." You can substitute many things into his quote and it still makes sense. Nobody takes care of someone else's right as well as that person.
I see fallacy In wanting to disarm citizens and relying on a police force to protect citizens. All the time claiming the police are corrupt and untrustworthy. That leaves the government the thing I fear the most. This is the road to ruin.
 
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It’s like anything else, once past childhood you can’t be taught much unless you’re willing. A kid will listen, even an irrational kid will sink some in. An adult isn’t that way. Although easily swayed, kids can form and express their own opinions. An adult doesn’t want to do that. If it’s already in their mind it will be hard to remove.
 
"...hoplophobia..." Isn't actually a real word.

It is as "real" as any of the dozens of dozens of words made up in the past century. It's as real as "assault weapon", or "gerrymandering" or any of the political scandal names ending in "gate" or any of a huge number of other words created during living memory to describe something.

It was coined, I believe, by Jeff Cooper combining the root of Hoplite (ancient Greek warriors) with phobia to indicate an irrational fear of weapons, soldiers, militarism, etc.

It is a bit awkward sounding, and I don't consider it Coopers finest moment, but it's a word he used, and others have picked up on it, and used it the same way for decades now.

It's not a word I use, but I recognize the reason it was created and used. the word I use for those who have an irrational fear of weapons is "idiot", but that's not PC, and is probably a disservice to actual idiots, so perhaps "Fool" is a better word.

There is a rational amount of fear of inanimate objects, though its not usually spoken of as fear, the more common words used are concern, apprehension, or respect...

Ask any sailor if they fear the sea, and they'll probably say they don't, but they do respect it. I have a degree of fear (or respect if you prefer) for things that can do harm, animate or not. A boulder, or a girder, or anything else poised where it could fall on you is something to ...respect. Likewise, being hit by lightning. A rational amount of fear is what keeps us alive in hazardous situations.

though I no longer recall the name, there is a school of thought embodied in the phrase "Die if you must, but never fight back!" which holds that suffering anything, up to and including death is morally superior than resorting to violence. Personally, I'd rather be "morally inferior" and alive than morally superior, and dead, but that's just me...;)

Many of the people who hate and fear firearms feel they are morally superior because they hate and fear firearms. Some are proud of their ignorance, and deliberately avoid and resist being educated, apparently believing that knowing anything (and especially the truth) about firearms would somehow diminish their moral superiority.

The idea of firearms somehow being something deserving of disgust, hate, and fear reminds me of a scene from an old movie I saw ages ago. I've long forgotten the other details of the movie, but one scene stuck with me. The setting a a murder mystery, a group of people invited to an island, cut off by a bad storm, and then one gets murdered...then another..the remaining guests gather with their host to figure out what to do. Most are British, one American. The American asks the host if there is a gun in the house, and the reply is an indignant "Certainly not, sir! I am a proper Englishman!"

Idiot

:rolleyes:
 
The idea of firearms somehow being something deserving of disgust, hate, and fear reminds me of a scene from an old movie I saw ages ago. I've long forgotten the other details of the movie, but one scene stuck with me. The setting a a murder mystery, a group of people invited to an island, cut off by a bad storm, and then one gets murdered...then another..the remaining guests gather with their host to figure out what to do. Most are British, one American. The American asks the host if there is a gun in the house, and the reply is an indignant "Certainly not, sir! I am a proper Englishman!"
That sounds a lot like Agatha Christie's "And Then There Were None", or an adaptation of it.
 
Prof Young, I agree with you sir. But from what I'm seeing, civil discourse, utilizing facts and logic, is becoming as uncommon as common courtesy. We see occasional reports of a pro 2A person changing the attitude of some anti-gunner, but unfortunately these victories are minuscule in the overall scheme of things. What people pay attention to are social media, sound bites, catchy phrases, name calling, public shaming, victims, marches, protests, etc. Now, politicians, Hollywood, professional sports, music industry, and more recently, financial institutions, enthusiastically supported by Liberal media,are falling all over themselves in their efforts to out Virtue Signal each other in their support of restrictive gun control legislation.

As I said, I agree with you, but I think we're in for a difficult struggle that may not ultimately end well from a pro 2A perspective......

BTW, 44 AMP, I agree with your comments.
 
I can no longer remember the author who said it (and whether it was their personal opinion or one of their characters), but I do remember the idea, and the supporting argument, which was essentially that..

Eventually, the Internet will be the death of individual thought.

(and this was at least a decade ago, maybe more...)

The supporting argument was, uniquely enough, biology! Specifically, evolution. The comparison was made that individual thought and beliefs are like genetic mutations, The point went something like this...

Random mutations happen all the time. But in a large population, all "connected" and interbreeding, unless the mutation offers a radical improvement in individual survival, it is extremely rare that the mutation will survive, and become a dominant trait. It will be diluted, and overwhelmed by the DNA of the "normal" mass of the population within a few generations, and will, either disappear entirely or at best, become a regressive gene that only appears rarely in individuals, and is even more rarely dominant in them.

But, if the breeding population is isolated from the bulk of the species, by a remote location (like an island) DIVERGENCE will occur, and can, over time, survive and even become dominant, resulting in entirely different plants and animals than the rest of the world. Australia is one given example.

The parallel with individual thoughts/beliefs is pretty clear, to me, at least. And I believe one can clearly see the effect of group think/herd mentality on social media today. Since we are all connected, ideas that diverge from the accepted norms are swamped (or sometimes stomped) out of existence by the sheer mass of the entire rest of the world.

A single, or a small number of individuals have a thought, post it, and within minutes millions of other people are agreeing with them, and adopting the cause as their own. Dissenters are most frequently overwhelmed into irrelevance. Sometimes they are attacked and destroyed.

From nature to social and political thought, this has always been going on, but the internet and our modern communications networks, enhance, and accelerate the process. And, they also have a huge effect on solidifying the accepted "norms" power and influence. It is very much a case of "mob rule".

And the mob leaders don't want anyone but their hired employees (police, private security, & the military) to have guns. Guns in the hands of people they don't "own" are a potential, and sometimes an actual threat to their aims and desires to rule the rest of us.

Think about the creation of the United States. And think about why it happened here, and almost nowhere else in the world. One of the big factors that both allowed it to begin, and aided in its eventual success was our isolation from our hereditary rulers in England.

When the King's orders, and the soldiers to enforce them are only a day or three days away from dissenters, rebellion is most difficult, and easiest to overwhelm. When it takes weeks, or a couple months by ship to reach those in rebellion, the new ideas have time to spread and take hold, making them much more difficult for the old order to stamp out.

We have now a couple generations who have been trained their entire lives to hate and fear guns. Their political masters tell them to do so, their social peers demand they do so, the incredible BS about guns on their video screens teaches them, 24/7 these days.

Telling these people about reality is not a terribly effective teacher. But reality rudely biting them in the ass usually is. The old joke about "the most staunch law and order supporter is a liberal who has been mugged" is not entirely untrue...

When the hate and fear guns people feel physically threatened, where to they turn? to someone with a gun! IF their servants (police etc.) with guns don't make them feel secure, they want a gun of their own!!! Double standard? oh yeah...
This is a great train of thought. Add to it the idea that each political party has incentive to BE the owners of the guns (LE, Military) and work hard to do so. As such, the owners can better control all the guns.

Or maybe you said that but I'm too dang tired at the moment to "get it." :-)

--Wag--
 
Hoplophobia is not real in the sense of it being a classic phobic reaction as related to the psychiatrically diagnosed phobia. So it is not a useful word in that sense.

Next, there's no evidence that autism and views on guns are related. Just awhile ago, some in the gun world were trying to blame rampages on autism. Both are baloney.

Pro and anti zealots will try to co-opt psychogical or psychiatry terms and processes to denigrate their opponents. It's just stupid and just a level of above school yard insults.

There are rational reasons to support gun rights or gun control. Rational cognitive processes can determine which position has the stronger case.

Saying your opponent is a nut is worthless.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Rational cognitive processes can determine which position has the stronger case.

If only it could even be agreed what "rational cognitive processes" are...

We could agree that all "blue" guns are safe... but if what I call blue you call pink, and vice versa.... well...

and that's where we stand, and unfortunately always have. It's not even a gun thing. Every single issue that has two or more sides has the same problem.

That's why "reasonable" people disagree on issues. It's not really the issue, it's the logic behind the decision making.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
....There are rational reasons to support gun rights or gun control. Rational cognitive processes can determine which position has the stronger case.....

But often values and shared cultural norms can be non-rational elements coloring the cognitive process. In general, and for diverse reasons, and based on assortments of different values and life priorities, and fueled by varying beliefs, some people don't like guns; they don't understand or accept the proposition that owning guns can be reasonable and relevant for honest, normal people in a 21st Century urban society; they don't understand why normal, honest folks in a 21st Century urban society want guns; they are afraid of people with guns or who would want to have a gun; and they don't accept the various premises upon which we have concluded that having guns is a good and useful thing.
 
I am not sure if anyone who currently hates/fears firearms will change their minds by mere discourse alone. In fact, virtually every topic you could debate, will never change the mind of your opponent by feeding them facts, actual statistics, etc.

The reason being, so few out there have an open mind when it comes to debating. They arrive at their own opinions from a state of clear bias, and have no desire to change their minds.

I happened to be one of the exceptions. Until I was 25, I was anti-gun. I swallowed the hype of 'all guns are bad', 'only criminals or hunters would own guns', 'background checks and waiting periods are good ideas', 'if it saves one life...' blah blah blah. I had never considered owning a gun, never occurred to me that I might enjoy shooting. Never thought I would need something to defend my life. I carried knives and even pepper spray.

However, my mindset on topics, from my teenage years, has been 'Prove to me I am wrong, and I will change my mind'. Even after I had become a gunowner, I still held the anti beliefs. And once I did my own research with the CDC data, I quickly saw that I was wrong.
 
That is certainly true. For years, behavioral experts have known that decision making runs on two tracks:

1. A cognitive, rational track that is deliberate
2. An emotional track

It takes deliberate effort to use #1 as compared to number two. Various professions: economics, legal, medical, scientists etc. thought that they as trained professionals used process #1 for the most part as they were 'trained'. Turned out not to be true although it is still denied by some members of those professions, usually to their embarrassment.

It is important to realize the impact of process #2 when you discuss how social issue decisions are made by 'professionals'.

The problem is how do you break process 2 barriers to make your case. A judge who is predisposed against firearms isn't going to listen or be convinced by a giant brief. A scientist who does believe in climate change may not believe data, and vice versa.

Someone who was at the Las Vegas shooting isn't going to buy into that Joe Schmoe needs a assault weapon without major processing.

In any case, my point was that incorrect arguments don't work. If you can use process 1 arguments, they should be grounded, at least, in correct terminology and knowledge.

All our recent social debates are tangled up in not accepting premises. A Senator who proposed that miscegenation should be Constitutional prohibited in the 1900's would not accept that the 'races' are equal as he knew that God made them unequal. We see the same kind of processes with the debate about marriage equality today.

However, the premises about miscegenation changed over time.

How will the tides of time deal with gun rights? Will the messaging from the gun world (either rational or emotional) be able to swing the mass of public opinion such that the Congress and Courts will eliminate restrictions that seem reasonable to some but not to us?

I haven't seen that coming out of the NRA recently that seems to target the already committed and is insulting to the other side or non committed.

To repeat, using incorrect psychiatric terms or trying link disorders to attitudes you don't agree with is a useless strategy.

I don't like guns as I saw children shot down in schools, concert goers in Las Vegas, university students, people on the streets due to the guns wars - why I must have a phobia (as described in the psychiatric terminology) or I have autism. That will really work.
 
Well Said Prof Young.

Sometimes there is no convincing people who are close-minded. They only want to believe their own and for some reason cannot see the truth beyond the trees.

As you said, we can only try to remain civil and polite with our discussions with them. What I find sad is that they may think that both the gun and person who owns guns are both bad.

What about retired military veterans or police officers? Or any law-abiding citizen for that matter.
 
When the anti-gun type's house gets broken into, who do they call? The anti-gun congressman/woman? Or the police? They'll have to make a rational decision fast.
 
I don't like guns as I saw children shot down in schools, concert goers in Las Vegas, university students, people on the streets due to the guns wars - why I must have a phobia (as described in the psychiatric terminology) or I have autism. That will really work.

Well said, and very illustrative of your point.


To the OP, you did right. I typically don't engage the gun control debate outside of my echo chamber (here and occasionally The High Road) anymore. Even here, among pro-gun enthusiasts, we don't agree on details of some gun control. Take the terror watch list firearm prohibition. Most here were against the Feinstein bill (though a few seemed open to it at the time), some were ok with the John Cornyn bill that had due process included, and some were not comfortable with any terror watch list firearm prohibition.

At any rate, reasoned and controlled debate should win the day (though it rarely actually does). If it begins to turn sour, disengage. I have family that I cannot discuss politics with because of irrational emotional viewpoints. I can listen to almost any viewpoint and not become angry at the person for having it (short of racism and other obviously immoral stances), but I find that many with a stance opposite of mine do not have this ability. Because of this break down in rational conversation when I simply have a different opinion, I chose not to engage in said conversation. It sounds like you were having a conversation with someone who had a level of emotional maturity that seems uncommon these days. Kudos to you, and to that person.
 
One of our biggest barriers right now is the couplet, "Common Sense Gun Laws." All it usually means is that, "if you don't agree with me, you're wrong."

Pretty sad, really. That dogmatic approach to things makes it almost impossible to discuss the realities and the facts.

--Wag--
 
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