Paying for a few letters in a particular order.
- Thread starter Pond James Pond
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I'd guess this all really isn't as simple as it seems - same product, different name, more money.
For example the the XD's may cost more than the HS2000 because of:
Letiguous happy USA liability insurance
Import taxes
Overseas shipping
Re-marketing as the XD (online & print adds aren't cheap)
Costs associated with getting them on some states compliant lists.
Warehouse/marketing/management/healthcare overhead related to that product line beyond their original 1911 people.
And who knows what kind of political palm greasing, "security", export "taxes" or other not-so-obvious costs are associated in doing business with Croatia itself...?
For example the the XD's may cost more than the HS2000 because of:
Letiguous happy USA liability insurance
Import taxes
Overseas shipping
Re-marketing as the XD (online & print adds aren't cheap)
Costs associated with getting them on some states compliant lists.
Warehouse/marketing/management/healthcare overhead related to that product line beyond their original 1911 people.
And who knows what kind of political palm greasing, "security", export "taxes" or other not-so-obvious costs are associated in doing business with Croatia itself...?
Pond James Pond
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Well, quality is not necessarily an issue unless customers endure bad quality and/or a high price simply because it has Kimber written on the side.
Are they doing that? This is what I'm trying to establish in this thread.
ninjarealist
New member
Pond said:
The reason I made a point of talking about it in such a comprehensive way is because I frequently see other users accuse HK buyers of doing exactly what you say. It's probably the most commonly cited example of what you describe in the OP and, as far as I'm concerned, it's also one of the single most over-exaggerated cliches in the internet firearms community . So when I see people propagating this notion I do my best to try and dispel it, if only a little.
Pond James Pond
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OK, but unless you know the reason that people buy HK is not the name, then you can only really dispel the notion in relation to your personal motives for buying that brand.
Its impossible to establish that.
People buy a name for many reasons; past experience, design/feel, appearance, quality, machining, etc etc...
Buying a name is much more than simply buying it because it has that name.. the name often comes with a overall "style" that appeals to the buyer no matter if its over-priced.
Its NOT just about quality.. its about having a certain something the buyer wants.
Trying to dig into whether or not a HK or Kimber or some other brand is worth the money is pointlessly subjective and quickly distracts from the other worthy aspect of this thread... "what guns are sold under different names elsewhere for more/less money, etc etc"
I'd suggest steering away from the motives of the buyer and perceived quality aspects and focus on the factual existence of sibling products and their subtle differences instead.
First remember supply & demand.. as a product/brand becomes more popular their "stock" goes up as word spreads and their product becomes more popular.
So the next logical step is to increase the price to balance supply and demand while profiting as much as possible without chasing buyers away.
I found the parts in bold to be a little comical... it seems your doubling-down on internet fodder??
Your still not getting any hands on experience and still getting only our opinions on the matter.
Easier said than done.
Sometimes the capitol isnt there, and even if it is, spending thousands upon thousands to increase supply so that you can drop the price doesn't make much sense unless the sustainable sales volume is shown to be worth the expense, effort, overhead and complexity.
A non-specific example:
Nowadays, adding just one more employee to run one more cnc machine can throw a company's healthcare requirements into another category that can cost them tens of thousands plus the cost of the new cnc.. thereby erasing the profits of expansion.
Like I said, non-specific, but it gives the idea of snowballing expenses if its not very well planned out by sharp business-minded folk.
Additional investment makes sense if the product line is expanding with new models, compacts, long slides and so on.
By that time the brand has a following and shown that the products sell at their price, the expansion just gives the buyer something new to buy, and if they continue to buy why bother dropping the price?
Pond James Pond
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To be fair, I'm not looking for a definitive answer to life, the universe and everything.
However, I do believe that there are some brands where simply the name carries more weight than others. Sometimes enough that people will pay extra.
Seeing as many people have answered this thread, I'm clearly not the only one to think that is possible.
This is not a question of being worth the money. Clearly they must be to some or none would be sold. This is about why they might have spent the money. For the product itself, or the name?
I can assure you that most people here who wear Armani are doing so for bragging rights not the quality given that abut 85% of the Armani badges proudly wobbling on someone's hindquarter pocket is from a knock-off bought at the local market for about €15 and most people here would rather have a shagged BMW/Merc than a nearly new Mazda or Opel. I know my local market, but I don't know TFL's.
Or someone can start a whole new thread on that topic if they wish. I am interested in both aspects of the issue and will gladly read any info on either part of that equation but as I said earlier sibling brands are not a prerequisite for posting a response.
It is unwise to form one's opinions solely on other people's opinions, but it is equally unwise to completely discount other people's opinions: During my time on TFL I have read threads and in doing so, I've also read between the lines based on thread titles, content of responses and tone of those responses.
From all that I gain an impression of people's view of certain brands.
Now, I am asking a direct question to see if what I have summised is a shared view or not.
As for doubling-down on internet fodder, I don't know about you, but I give the content on TFL a tad more credence than I do other random stuff online.
And if I'm wrong to then what are any of us doing on here in the first place?!
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James Pond said:
I give the content provided by many credence, those who have shown they provide good info over the years, who have owned the products, and those who are not just parroting others.
Folks who have never owned a HK but are here grinding on them based on others opinions? No, no credence given.
I'm no fanboy of HK btw, for largely the same reasons, their recent prices vs value balance is off for me.
They used to be a good value when I bought my first USP, but not at current prices.
But who knows why their prices rose... is it capitalizing on their name? Perhaps.
Maybe it just goes back to a time when the dollar was weak and they found out we still bought their products, so they kept the prices there from then on?
Who's going to come out and say they bought a BMW or HK because of the name?? Of course they're reasons will be backed up by some sort of product-based reasoning other than pure prestige, hopefully.
The info and clarity your seeking is not readily available.
Dash said:
Isnt that kind of what you did with this thread by comparing the Audi & VW's? Seeking info on what brands are "piggy-backing" another brand (ie =XD?)James Pond said:
If not, there sure are several others who thought so by mentioning Mausers and so on.
Jimbob, if you increase supply the price will eventually fall.
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Pond James Pond
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That was an example to illustrate how, for some, the badge carries a certain monetary value in and of itself.
I am interested in knowing which are the brands where the brand name justifies a higher price tag in the eyes of the buying.
I explained in one of the first posts that there being a like-for-like product where one is more expensive but bearing a cooler brand rollmark is not a pre-requisite for a response on this thread but any examples that exist are welcome. Such as the Mauser case.
I'm not sure about the confusion here: I think the question behind the thread is fairly clear.
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Do you think that people would pay as much if this .22 caliber 1911 had "WALTHER" in big huge letters on the slide?
http://www.waltherarms.com/government-1911-a1/
It does have "Walther" stamped into the frame in small letters on the opposite side. Kind of funny how they don't even show that on the Walther website.
http://www.tanfo.de/0_WA/WALTHER_1911_0011.jpg
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ninjarealist
New member
45_auto said:
Would it be worth less than dirt if it had "Umarex" on the slide?
EDIT
Saw your edit and it seems that Umarex is on the gun as well
Somethings I willing to pay a little more based on the name. Let's say Ruger if there were essentially identical products, one was a Ruger and one was a company you never heard of then to me it is worth a little more due to customer service/warranty and better resale value. Re sale value comes into play as well with AR's a Franken version likely isn't going to be a easily sold as one with Colt on everything. But then again the Franken may have been MUCH lower priced to begin with. Some things I am willing to roll the dice on, like few hundred dollar shotgun, but wouldn't on a new pick up truck, I will pay more to stick with a brand/dealer I know and trust, it is all a balance and choice.
Just because their name has been.mentioned many times I will say I own a kimber and know two others who do as well, one of whom puts many thousands of rounds a year through his, we are all quite satisfied with them. I too have read the many negative posts, but so far hasn't happened to us.
Just because their name has been.mentioned many times I will say I own a kimber and know two others who do as well, one of whom puts many thousands of rounds a year through his, we are all quite satisfied with them. I too have read the many negative posts, but so far hasn't happened to us.
Consider all the Colt SAA clones. The public buying them want the design, but don't feel its worth paying for the name.
Regardless of the actual quality of the product (within limits) a recognized brand name makes things worth more, except to those who value function above all else, and those folks don't set market value, the general consumer does.
I have a guitar, its rather nice. A Seville Jazz bass. A professional has played it and said it had a "sweet buttery action", which I gather is a good thing (I'm not skilled enough to be able to tell,
). What I am skilled enough to know is that if it said Fender on it, it would sell for about 3x more.
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