Parking lot incident

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Since 99% of the 1 million - 2 million instances of firearm self-defense end with no shots fired, by some of your accounts those were all irresponsible uses of firearms.

There are a lot of armchair critics who have no clue, if they think every time you draw a a firearm you should be shooting. And if you don't shoot then you had no business drawing.

MG sounds more mature and thoughtful than most of his critics. That's the beauty of the interwebz, no matter what you say someone will jump to criticize.

The fact that the responding deputies saw no problem with his response ought to give his critics some pause.
 
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The fact that the responding deputies saw no problem with his response ought to give his critics some pause.

Wildalaska said:
Legal is not always smart
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Those deputies aren't the ones who would have been trying the case either. Wal-marts all have security cameras facing the parking lot, think about what that would have looked like. One car stops, second car stops, man gets out, hits/touches other car, possibly is shot.
 
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At what point do you draw the gun?? Most of us would agree that trying to draw on someone who has already drawn is a losing proposition. Who's to say he wouldn't have pulled a gun of his own first?


There are those that would say, "At that point shoot him!" Great idea. But chances are you won't be fast enough if you react when they are already in the process of drawing.

Maybe you should do as PeetzaKilla says and draw but keep hidden. I think that gives you a better chance than not having drawn, but who knows if you would be able to pull up your gun and orient (remember we are in a car and not many people practice their presentation from a car) before he would be able to get to a gun and shoot.

I find it very hard to criticize someone's actions without having been there and seen it. Interesting thread though.
 
I think my first response would be to comely say. I am waiting for the handicap parking spot, it should just be a minute. The other key point is the OP was waiting for the handicap spot, it is possible he is really not able to defend himself physically. Unless the guy showed a knife or gun, he could not hurt me too bad, but a small women or a handicap person may not be in the same situation.
 
Wildalaska: I loved the Bill Clinton thing.
Dr. Strangelove: I go to UGA, and am glad the football games dont turn to armed battles. We would all be screwed, or Kevlar sales would go up :D.

Microgunner: Im glad no one was hurt, sorry you were put in that crappy situation. I gather, you were in fear for your life, and Im sorry for that and extremely happy everything turned out well.
 
If there is this much difference of opinion here on a pro-gun/pro-2nd Amendment forum, imagine if there had been charges brought by the state on both parties.

The makeup of any jury is most likely to be less informed and biased towards the concept of self-defense as we are. What do you think a jury would decide if the charge of aggravated assault was brought against Microgunner? An Aggravated Assault is "an assault with a deadly weapon without intent to kill." This is a felony in Florida.

My intent in raising this aspect of the use of force and carrying a weapon is that there can be severe consequences even without a shooting.

You have to consider that in carrying a lethal weapon you must have as much control as possible over your emotions and make rational decisions in a split second under highly stressful conditions. You must control your fear, anger and desire for revenge.

These postings can be helpful in doing mental "what ifs" that can help us set parameters for which actions we decide are justified in the cool, calm safety of our homes and with the luxury of time to mull it all over.
 
I think there are pro's and con's to both sides and truthfully I cannot make an accurate judgement without being put in that situation myself. As a MMQB I think I would have had the gun out, maybe under my shirt or my right thigh, and ready to go. Just remember when a BG "does something" you may or may not have the time to react to save yourself.
 
Did the schmuck ever say why he didn't just go around you, OP? I've been behind folks doing that, I just go around and find myself a spot
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He probably didn't go around because someone who thought their time was more important than his decided to block the aisle while waiting for a parking space. Having a handicapped permit does not give one carte blanche to inconvenience other folks.
 
He probably didn't go around because someone who thought their time was more important than his decided to block the aisle while waiting for a parking space. Having a handicapped permit does not give one carte blanche to inconvenience other folks.
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Are you serious? If someone doesn't want to get inconvenienced, someone ought to stay home. There's no right or wrong to a guy waiting on an old lady to pull out no matter who is behind him unless it's an ambulance with lights & siren going.

"Convenience" is exactly that... if it's not convenient, get over it. If you are sitting behind a stopped car in a parking lot and it's not making you happy and polluting your day then check your mirrors and shift in to reverse.

If waiting & stopped in a parking lot is not convenient, is it more convenient to scream, act like a nutbar, physically pound on someone's car while screaming belligerently and then beg the guy to shoot you at close range? When did the idiot's convenience stop being the motivating factor and his range become the priority?

I don't agree with the OP's draw in this situation, but anyone who thinks this incident is the OP's fault (given the info we have here) is delusional.

It's not legal to stop your car on a public street for no reason or to sit stopped at a green light. This was a parking like for crying out loud. If you are inconvenienced, welcome to the free world-- the same world that doesn't revolve around YOU.
 
I doubt that I would have sat in the car while the guy was raging, hitting my car window and threatening me, because you are a sitting duck in a car if the guy were to escalate. There is nowhere to take cover sitting in a car if the guy produced a weapon.

If you can't drive away quickly, get out of the car (take your keys) and move away from the assailant, if possible. Don't turn your back on him.

If he attempts to strike you, soak his face with pepper spray (I always have it with me, especially if I am armed) move to safety ASAP and call the police.

Constantly monitor his hand movements. If they disappear in a furtive move as if for a weapon, yell STOP while you draw to the low ready, seeking cover at the same time. If he produces a weapon you may have no further choice in the matter.

At all times attempt to plot an escape route that provides cover. If you are able to move to safety without endangering yourself or anyone else, do it. But do not turn your back on the assailant until you are free of danger.

The rule of thumb is that the resistance has to fit the threat. There are a lot of variables, including age, physical condition of the parties, the number of assailants, and the type of threat.

In the OP's case, I'm not sure that drawing a weapon was entirely called for, nor were any of the other tactics that I suggested here employed. I wasn't there, of course, so I will curtail any further armchair analysis. My best advise is to have at least one non-lethal option available to you, especially when you are armed.

My two cents.
 
First, let me preface with the fact that Florida is a strong stand your ground state and we are not required to retreat in any fashion. That said, last Monday, while circling the very crowded parking lot for a handicap space (I get to park close, that's what makes me so popular) a space was finally opening up. I pulled up close and waited for the elderly woman to vacate the space. A gold Toyota behind me quickly became impatient and began tooting his horn. I felt bad for blocking the isle but I needed that space. The woman was moving very slow and after the third toot I looked in my driver's side view mirror just in time to see an incredibly irate man, face fire engine red, teeth gritted stomping toward my door. I drew my KetTec P3AT in anticipation, but kept it unseen, and as he passed the rear door of my car he slammed the glass with the side of his right fist very hard. He stopped at my window and began screaming at the top of his lungs to move my %$#*&^ car or he was going to kick my %$#*)(^$#*^% a$$. So...I pointed my pistol at him. He began screaming "shoot me shoot me" over and over. I was trapped at this point with the little old lady backing out and the assailant's car parked behind me. I lowered my window a little and firmly advised him to back up, that I would defend myself. Thankfully the road cleared and I pulled into the space. They called the police and I waited. Every deputy in the county showed up. They were all very cordial, asked a few questions, had me and him fill out a statement, ran the serial# of my KelTec as well as the Colt M4 OPS .22 in the trunk. Neither of us pressed charges against the other, my pistol was returned and I and he went about our separate ways, me to a different WalMart. I've thought about it a lot since.
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Well, you encountered a lunatic on a bad day.

I wouldn't pull a gun unless they were armed. How would it look in court? 'W guy shoots unarmed man.' Lawyers would eat your lunch.

I don't think people really find kel-tecs too intimidating either. Perhaps if you pointed a .45 or .44 at him he would have been nicer. :D

I wasn't there and everything turned out ok, so all's well that ends well...unless he tracks you down!!! :eek:
 
GojuBrian brings up a good point. As I replied on another forum where you posted this situation...

I would keep your weapon very close at hand! If this guy has your license plate number and he is that unstable, his random act of aggression in the parking lot could become personal. I'm just saying...

Scott
 
I wouldn't pull a gun unless they were armed. How would it look in court? 'W guy shoots unarmed man.' Lawyers would eat your lunch.
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Lawyers & courtrooms absolutely never entered my mind during those brief and startling seconds. What I was actually thinking was "Oh s**t, I'm gonna have to shoot this guy". Then relief when I was able to pull forward away from his raging. He never backed down. As I pulled ahead he stood rigid, fists clinched at his side, teeth gritted, shaking. I truly thought he was going to seize.
 
So far, KLRANGL, (nice handle, is it short for Killer Angel?) you have only met one out of three criteria, that of being boxed in between roadragers car and old ladys car that was backing out.
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It is actually ;) Favorite book of all time, but they wouldn't let me put KillerAngel as my handle, so I had to change it...

I do think I met all three criteria though. Intent: threatened great bodily injury. Ability: this is a bit of an assumption, but it goes back to what I said about reading into situations. He could have been 5'3" 120lbs, but I think not. Opportunity: you're stuck...
Lawyers & courtrooms absolutely never entered my mind during those brief and startling seconds.
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Nor will it at that moment. You did what you thought was best, and I cant disagree with you...
 
There are a multitude of scenarios where there is sufficient threat to draw a weapon, but not yet enough to fire.
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For me in Texas, that is not the case. The threshold for justification to draw my weapon is no leass than the threshold for justification for pulling the trigger. I must be in reasonable fear of death or grave sever bodily injury to present my weapon - the same standard I must meet to fire upon someone.

Could be different in other states, but if you pull and don't shoot you better make sure you r were willing to shoot at that same instant.
 
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