oneounceload
Moderator
Did the schmuck ever say why he didn't just go around you, OP? I've been behind folks doing that, I just go around and find myself a spot
Parking lot incident
- Thread starter Microgunner
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Well you would have to replace "nogood...." with "im going to kill you" (intent). And I would have to consider your ability to get into my car and do me harm. Opportunity is certainly there (im stuck in traffic). If those three conditions were met, then yes I would shoot you unless you backed off when I drew down. I read those three conditions in the OP, but if you did not I can see why you would choose not to get the firearm involved. The written word being what it is, it is possible we are all reading the same story differently... But I still stand by what I said. I beleive a firearm was justified in this situation. And like I mentioned earlier, apparently the cops did too...
First I am going to say I agree with what you did, pulling gun and all. I find this site to have a very restricting view on gun holders. Say you didn't draw on him, he decided to use a knife, etc, to smash your window, then end situation you are probably going to have to shoot him.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Which means you draw and shoot.... or even draw when the OP did and keep the gun out of sight until needed.
NEVER point a gun at ANYTHING you are not willing to DESTROY.
Wildalaska
Moderator
And that is justified
probably 'cuz it's mission is to promote responsible gun onwership
WildraaaaaaaamboprawnsAlaska ™
Glad you got out of the situation OK, but personally my motto is "don't draw it unless you're going to shoot it." If you draw your pistol it should only be in response to a threat of immediate harm or death to yourself or others, and that draw should be immediately followed by shots. An unarmed man banging on your window is certainly frightening and disturbing, but not life threatening at that instant. If it was life threatening, I would argue that your first action should be to attempt to ram through the traffic block to get away. A damaged car is less of an issue than shooting someone, because stand-your-ground laws aside, shooting someone will incur a lot more legal expenses than replacing your car. You could have been charged with brandishing.
Edit: I wanted to add a suggestion. Whenever you are driving, leave at least one car length between you and the car/object in front of you. If you are stopped at a traffic light, stop sign, or in a parking lot, having space in front of you allows you to have turning room to escape should someone run up to your car. Also remember to always lock your doors when you get into your car if they don't lock automatically.
Edit: I wanted to add a suggestion. Whenever you are driving, leave at least one car length between you and the car/object in front of you. If you are stopped at a traffic light, stop sign, or in a parking lot, having space in front of you allows you to have turning room to escape should someone run up to your car. Also remember to always lock your doors when you get into your car if they don't lock automatically.
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Micro.... man just chill. You can't go whipping it out just cuz' some idiot is screaming at you.
Yes, maybe secure it as Peetza suggested but don't point it. I understand your anxiety as it sounds like you were blocked in but as WA sez this site desperately tries to promote responsible use.
Secure firearm, dial 911, leave as soon as unblocked. Now..... if the glass your looking out gets broke.... all bets are off.
Yes, maybe secure it as Peetza suggested but don't point it. I understand your anxiety as it sounds like you were blocked in but as WA sez this site desperately tries to promote responsible use.
Secure firearm, dial 911, leave as soon as unblocked. Now..... if the glass your looking out gets broke.... all bets are off.
Dr. Strangelove
New member
"No duty to retreat" doesn't mean "No duty to use common sense", folks. I find it hard to believe someone beating on your car with their fists in a Wal-mart parking lot makes anyone fear for their life or great bodily harm. Just because someone makes a poor decision doesn't mean you need to follow it up with a worse decision.
If being a jackass was sufficient grounds to shoot someone, there would be a lot less people in the world right now. The 2nd guy was in the wrong, clearly, but the OP was in the wrong to have pointed a firearm at him. He's lucky he didn't get charged with assault himself.
By the way, if some you guys were here in Athens for a football game at the University of Georgia, I shudder to think of the numbers of deaths that would occur in the various parking lots...
If being a jackass was sufficient grounds to shoot someone, there would be a lot less people in the world right now. The 2nd guy was in the wrong, clearly, but the OP was in the wrong to have pointed a firearm at him. He's lucky he didn't get charged with assault himself.
By the way, if some you guys were here in Athens for a football game at the University of Georgia, I shudder to think of the numbers of deaths that would occur in the various parking lots...
orionengnr
New member
Well, it was only a Kel-Tec
Willing to destroy? Yes.
Intending to destroy? In this instance, not quite yet, but maybe very soon.
Depends on what the meaning of "is" is...
Wildalaska
Moderator
Why do I think of Bill Clinton
WildworkslavesworkoimsorryithoughtiwasdealingwiththestaffAlaska ™
Microgunner
New member
Absolutely. Thank God it didn't come to that but I do not posture idly.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
You're not "willing to destroy" unless "willing" is present tense. If "willing" is present tense then you are NOT willing and therefore should not be pointing a gun at something that you are NOT willing to destroy.
What might be in 10 seconds or 10 minutes or 1 second is not relevant. Not willing to destroy it, don't point a gun at it.
I think you miss the point though. The question is not "would you be willing if..." it is RIGHT AT THAT EXACT SECOND, no further actions required by the aggressor. Were you willing to destroy that man right then, right at that second?
Drawing your gun and being willing if it comes to that is different than willing to kill at that moment. If you weren't willing to kill right at that moment then you should not point the gun at that person.
One more thing. The actions you took were the actions you took. I can't say absolutely what I would have done, it's a tough situation. Don''t think I'm attacking you. My original statement stands. Your judgement at that moment overrides my internet conjecture. I'm just walking through the process for yours and my future reference.
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First, don't take any of this as criticism. I wasn't there or in your position so I can't really criticize you. But I can form an opinion! heh.
Okay, so this is a perfect example of displaying your gun not always solving the problem. I'm curious, were you ready to use it if things escalated?
Why didn't you press charges? I would have. The guys obviously a hair trigger away from being a real danger to someone down the road.
I think about scenarios like this and how I'd react. I really appreciate threads like this, especially the ones (not like this one) where the poster admits to doing things wrong. (Not saying you did ANYTHING wrong). It's very educational.
From my armchair soapbox, I think that I would have made the gun accessible though unseen. I don't think that I'd display it until the guy actually broke my window and tried to attack me physically. As soon as he hit my car I'd have dialed 911 (if a phone was available). I'd let the guy know that I was dialing 911 and he should go back to his car and leave. Id he went back to his vehicle and "got something", I'd let 911 know that he appears to be getting something, possibly a weapon, and that i was armed and although I had not yet shown the person my gun I would do so if he came back with a weapon, and shoot him if he posed a threat to my life.
In the end, we really can't put ourselves in your shoes. No one got hurt, no one got in trouble, so the ends justify the means. Right? No harm no foul. I suppose.
Okay, so this is a perfect example of displaying your gun not always solving the problem. I'm curious, were you ready to use it if things escalated?
Why didn't you press charges? I would have. The guys obviously a hair trigger away from being a real danger to someone down the road.
I think about scenarios like this and how I'd react. I really appreciate threads like this, especially the ones (not like this one) where the poster admits to doing things wrong. (Not saying you did ANYTHING wrong). It's very educational.
From my armchair soapbox, I think that I would have made the gun accessible though unseen. I don't think that I'd display it until the guy actually broke my window and tried to attack me physically. As soon as he hit my car I'd have dialed 911 (if a phone was available). I'd let the guy know that I was dialing 911 and he should go back to his car and leave. Id he went back to his vehicle and "got something", I'd let 911 know that he appears to be getting something, possibly a weapon, and that i was armed and although I had not yet shown the person my gun I would do so if he came back with a weapon, and shoot him if he posed a threat to my life.
In the end, we really can't put ourselves in your shoes. No one got hurt, no one got in trouble, so the ends justify the means. Right? No harm no foul. I suppose.
maestro pistolero
New member
With all due respect, this is a dangerous mindset to instill. There are a multitude of scenarios where there is sufficient threat to draw a weapon, but not yet enough to fire. Self-defense situations are, by their very nature, rapidly changing, dynamic events.
A threat level can increase or decrease within milliseconds. In the half-second or so it takes to draw a weapon, a threat may escalate, or de-escalate. If you have trained to shoot every time you draw no matter what, you may find yourself with an unexpected and unwanted change of address.
Judging only from what the OP has written, it seems that pepper spray may have been a better match for the level of threat present. BTW, don't 'brandish' pepper spay. It is best deployed in as stealthy a manner as possible to avoid the assailant an opportunity to block the stream. JMHO
Microgunner
New member
Why do you insist on trivializing this situation? I've been in confrontations before, same as you, but this was far and beyond anything I've been party to as an adult. Visualize absolute rage to the point I thought he was going to stroke out. This was not a normal person.
spacemanspiff
New member
The OP's incident had the roadrager saying "Move the car or I'll kick you in the buttocks", where was the threat to kill?
The OP's account doesn't say the roadrager had anything visible with which to break the glass, nor does it say if the doors were locked/unlocked, nor does it say if the roadrager was 6'6" with fists of steel. It may as well have been a 5'2" 140 lb geek wearing a shirt that says "I'm training to become a cagefighter".
So far, KLRANGL, (nice handle, is it short for Killer Angel?) you have only met one out of three criteria, that of being boxed in between roadragers car and old ladys car that was backing out.
spacemanspiff
New member
This:
If you were in the right, the other guy would not have had the option to press charges against you. I am guessing that the cops told each of you that you could either press charges of assault on one another, or just drop it.
does not match up with this:
If you were in the right, the other guy would not have had the option to press charges against you. I am guessing that the cops told each of you that you could either press charges of assault on one another, or just drop it.
Well, I wasn't there, but I'd have liked the story better if you'd told us how you'd verbally defused things without getting the gun involved. Potential deadly force incident that's parking space related? He was yelling and gesturing while standing outside your car without attempting to physiclly contact you or your car? Maybe the gun in hand, but out of sight ready if needed, would have been more prudent.
Yes, I know, it's easy for me to talk when it's not my adrenaline elevated with fear.
Not necessarily true, since the cops at the scene may figure the courts can decide the issue and arrest both parties, or accept complaints from both. Hey, don't you ever watch Cops?
Yes, I know, it's easy for me to talk when it's not my adrenaline elevated with fear.
Not necessarily true, since the cops at the scene may figure the courts can decide the issue and arrest both parties, or accept complaints from both. Hey, don't you ever watch Cops?
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Tucker 1371
New member
Sounds like you handled it right to me, I hope I'm never faced with this kind of a jerk who can't check his testosterone but if I am I hope I handle it as well.
The whole "shoot me shoot me" thing is really surprising to me. I don't think I've ever been mad enough to not back down when looking down the barrel of a gun. If this guy has a shred of common sense he probably went home, sat down and thought "man that was stupid". He had no way of knowing your level of restraint.
Kill? no. Threat of great bodily harm or personal injury yes, and most states (and people I know for that matter) consider the threat of that to be justification for the use of deadly force. There have been plenty of brawls that have gotten out of hand and someone has wound up paralyzed or worse.
Also, I know how thick auto glass is and how bad it will cut but it isn't a stretch, especially if someone has a lot of adrenaline or testosterone pumping through them, for someone to break through a window with their fist/elbow and keep on dishing it out. About 2 years ago I fell asleep whill driving my '88 K5 Blazer (RIP
) and ran off the road, through some small trees and into a creek. The guy behind me stopped and elbowed out my back window and I crawled out. He may have had a towel wrapped around his elbow but I don't recall, he also may have had some cuts but if so they weren't too serious.
The points I am trying to make with all of this are A) It wasn't a stretch to believe this guy could have smashed his window and proceeded to beat the OP to a pulp, and B) given his verbal threats and his threatening demeanor the OP was clearly justified in employing his CCW the way he did.
The whole "shoot me shoot me" thing is really surprising to me. I don't think I've ever been mad enough to not back down when looking down the barrel of a gun. If this guy has a shred of common sense he probably went home, sat down and thought "man that was stupid". He had no way of knowing your level of restraint.
Kill? no. Threat of great bodily harm or personal injury yes, and most states (and people I know for that matter) consider the threat of that to be justification for the use of deadly force. There have been plenty of brawls that have gotten out of hand and someone has wound up paralyzed or worse.
Also, I know how thick auto glass is and how bad it will cut but it isn't a stretch, especially if someone has a lot of adrenaline or testosterone pumping through them, for someone to break through a window with their fist/elbow and keep on dishing it out. About 2 years ago I fell asleep whill driving my '88 K5 Blazer (RIP
) and ran off the road, through some small trees and into a creek. The guy behind me stopped and elbowed out my back window and I crawled out. He may have had a towel wrapped around his elbow but I don't recall, he also may have had some cuts but if so they weren't too serious. The points I am trying to make with all of this are A) It wasn't a stretch to believe this guy could have smashed his window and proceeded to beat the OP to a pulp, and B) given his verbal threats and his threatening demeanor the OP was clearly justified in employing his CCW the way he did.
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"shoot me shoot me" is entirely a reaction you should expect as a possibility. You can't just go around thinking that producing a gun as if it were a prop will make every perp drop to their knees and beg forgiveness.
If you pull your gun, you should be prepared to use it. That's not to say you shouldn't display unless you will actually pull the trigger. But it is, essentially, a bluff. You're upping the ante of your ability to stop their attack. If they call your bluff, you have to be prepared to showing that it wasn't actually a bluff, but a warning.
So, the lesson is: Don't bluff; warn.
If you pull your gun, you should be prepared to use it. That's not to say you shouldn't display unless you will actually pull the trigger. But it is, essentially, a bluff. You're upping the ante of your ability to stop their attack. If they call your bluff, you have to be prepared to showing that it wasn't actually a bluff, but a warning.
So, the lesson is: Don't bluff; warn.
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